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RedFish
Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Location: Denmark
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Oct 12, 2005 - 07:43 PM |
 
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Dauntless is nerfed so it shouldn't be too big a problem. Only a single D6 now + str.
And has to be better than the original strength if I'm not mistaken. |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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Oct 12, 2005 - 07:48 PM |
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Not nerfed enough. That's still a 50% chance of Zombie equalling a Troll....... I does not like. |
_________________
did you know, that if the worst thing that happens to you is you roll a bunch of 1's and your computer pixels die then you should consider it a damn good day. -PaulHicks |
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CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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Oct 12, 2005 - 08:14 PM |
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| HollowOne wrote: | | Quote: | | why would it be put that "if you decide to use Dirty Player/Mighty Blow to modify the Armour roll, you may not modify the Injury roll as well," unless that is meant to imply you need to decide before rolling? |
The statement "if you decide to use Dirty Player/Mighty Blow to modify the Armour roll, you may not modify the Injury roll as well" addresses the fact that you can't use the Mighty Blow skill on both the Armour roll and the injury roll.
Nothing contradicts the idea that I can use the skill to modify either the armour roll OR the injury roll after I have seen the armour roll.
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The key word that I can imagine a rules lawyer making his dubious point on is 'decide.' While the wording is pretty clear, why not take 'decide' out? You don't really actually 'decide' to use the +1 for armour roll - you either MUST use it to pass the roll, or else you don't need it to pass the roll in the first place (and therefore it applies to the injury roll instead).
The arguement would center around the word 'decide.' It is abundantly clear from the skill description that no-one would ever need to decide whether to use the modifier on the armour roll after seeing the roll. Therefore, one might argue, if there is a 'descision' on whether to use the modifier, it can only be because the modifier must be placed before the die roll is made.
It is a weak argument I know, but I've heard just as weak from gibbering rules lawyers in table top leagues in the past. Seems to me re-wording it slightly to take even the smallest bit of table top attourney ammunition out of the skill description can't be a bad idea...
One last note (on a possible reason one mgiht 'decide' when to use the modifier): since it already says that any skill use is voluntary, using the word 'decide' to let people know they don't have to use it if they are feeling merciful is already redundant. |
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***Did you know? 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot? |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 12, 2005 - 08:41 PM |
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| Macavity wrote: | | Not nerfed enough. That's still a 50% chance of Zombie equalling a Troll....... I does not like. |
Point of correction ... a Dauntless zombie would be a 67% chance of equally a Troll's ST.
Last week I wrote to several of the commishes of the playtest leagues about Dauntless. The feedback was the same from every league. Many teams were taking no Dauntless players and those that were had only one or two players with the skill.
One commish said Dauntless had become known as the "ah you let me down skill" in his league.
The reduction to its power (it fails more often now than the LRB 4.0 version) and the fact that it no longer combines with Horns makes it just not a must have skill according to all the leagues playtesting.
Galak |
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Torellion_Hawkwind
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
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Oct 12, 2005 - 08:45 PM |
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| lamby16 wrote: | | Why the changes to the names?? no more Storm Vermin, no more Longbeards?? it hink this loses some of the uniqueness of the game which is a shame. |
I agree, it strips creative colour from the teams, they should be getting MORE creative with naming not less |
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AFK_Eagle
Joined: Mar 12, 2004
Location: Colorado, USA
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Oct 12, 2005 - 08:47 PM |
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Yep, losing the horns/dauntless to my gutters is rather a bummer...but one I'll trade for the regular access to mutations... |
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Listen to Eagle! Eagle is good, Eagle is wise!
Founder of the E.L.F.--These elves will play anybody! |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 12, 2005 - 08:48 PM |
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| monboesen wrote: | | Are Chaos Dwarf blockers really intended to have acces to mutation skills. To me that seems to empower one of the strongest teams overall even more. |
Only if the mutations actually are better for them than other doubles rolls skills. Diving Tackle would generate a lot more turnovers than Prehensile Tail. Diving Tackle again would be significantly better than Tentacles (which was reduced in power). Finally Claw ... Claw isn't a bad skill for a CD ... but compared to skills like Dodge or Jump Up ... I'm not sure it is anywhere near a must have. So the position is ... it only improves them if a Mutation skill is actually better than the other choices in Agility. Again the feeling is that they are not since all the major mutations are significantly less powerful now.
| Quote: | | And if DE are more likely to do running plays and gets an additional player type, why not cut away the thrower. Then they will make mostly running plays and have the same number af positionals as other elven teams. |
The Assassins are meant to be additional flavour without altering the team. Many have debated that they don't actually add anything to the team other than some fun. That's why nothing was deleted when they were added. The goal wasn't to improve or really change the Dark Elf team ... just give it some more sparkles.
Galak |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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Oct 12, 2005 - 08:51 PM |
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Sorry, Galak, but could you give me an idea of what the skill progression on one of the player types I mentioned would be in the test leagues without doubles? Are Fend and Wrestle taken before Dauntless? (All after Block, we assume) DP and Kick aren't going on every player. |
_________________
did you know, that if the worst thing that happens to you is you roll a bunch of 1's and your computer pixels die then you should consider it a damn good day. -PaulHicks |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 12, 2005 - 08:55 PM |
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| Torellion_Hawkwind wrote: | | I agree, it strips creative colour from the teams, they should be getting MORE creative with naming not less |
I'll try this from a different stance to explain why it was done.
There is a possibility that BB may be more widely marketed in 2007. Instead of going through GW ... it might go through say Milton Bradley for its release. So there is a new core assumption when looking at the BB materials that the player picking up the game will never have heard for WFB or know anything of the GW races. For that player ... a Long Beard, Storm Vermin, or Lion Warrior is not being creative ... it is being confusing.
So we went through all the positions and if they were unique enough there were kept and Did You Knows were written and added to the rulebook (they are already in 1.10) to explain what a Troll Slayer is and what a Wardancer is and why they are special players in Blood Bowl. Players that were not unique enough to justify this treatment were given more common football names for their positions. Teams made up of mixed players (like the Undead) kept their names because these players have generic gaming names ... (ie Johnny knows what a Mummy is).
Like I said ... I know for some folks this is a bad thing ... for others it is great ... it depends on how you look at the glass. But the viewpoint for these changes was based on a new player who doesn't know GW products.
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 12, 2005 - 09:06 PM |
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| Macavity wrote: | | Sorry, Galak, but could you give me an idea of what the skill progression on one of the player types I mentioned would be in the test leagues without doubles? Are Fend and Wrestle taken before Dauntless? (All after Block, we assume) DP and Kick aren't going on every player. |
On most of the players you mentioned ... I'd be looking at Wrestle then Block and then either Fend or Dauntless (assuming I'm not developing my Kicker or Dirty Players).
A Wrestle/Block Zombie is a serious pain on the LOS. As on Pow/Skulls he is either going to take your blocker down with him or knock him down for a turnover. I'd definitely be looking at Wrestle before Dauntless. If you want to have a mobile defense or Frenzy stoppers on the line ... Fend again is a skill to pick before Dauntless. A Fend/Wrestle player will totally stop a Frenzy player from getting a 2nd block against him on the LOS and can never have Piling On used against him (so you cancel out two bashy skills on your LOS soaker).
I'm not saying that you won't see Dauntless ... I just strongly feel that Block, Fend, Tackle, Frenzy and Wrestle all are as good or better depending on your style of play.
If you load up Zombies with Dauntless ... I'm sure you'll be pretty happy if you has a Lizardmen team ... but against Amazons or any of the Elf teams ... you wasted that many skill picks as it will offer you nothing to help against those teams. That's why I don't think its a must have skill on more than one or two players.
Galak |
Last edited by GalakStarscraper on Oct 12, 2005 - 09:14 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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Oct 12, 2005 - 09:13 PM |
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Hmm... Well, I'll trust you for now. I'll be taking a lot of Fend for the sheer fun of it for the first while anyway, but you'd need to be a bit nuts to not make one or two KamiKaze Dauntless linos, even if you only field them when your BG go down. |
_________________
did you know, that if the worst thing that happens to you is you roll a bunch of 1's and your computer pixels die then you should consider it a damn good day. -PaulHicks |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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Oct 12, 2005 - 09:18 PM |
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Here's a suggestion: In addition to that Agility Table 1 roll 6+, 2 roll 5+, 3 roll 4+, 4 roll 3+, 5 roll 2+, 6 roll 1+, how about adding a note that D6+Ag+Modifiers should be 7+ for an action to succeed.
When I played the boardgame, I consulted the damn agility table at first, until I memorized the 7+ rule. It could help new coaches understand it better. Just a thought. |
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Torellion_Hawkwind
Joined: Jul 30, 2005
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Oct 12, 2005 - 09:20 PM |
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| HollowOne wrote: | | Cloggy wrote: | | The snow Troll should IMO lose the Claw as starting skill, since combined with MB after 1 skill roll the combo is too good, even with the new Claw. |
Given the context, I don't really agree. Claw is now effectively "Lower your opponent's Av to 7 on blocks", meaning it is almost useless against some teams (Amazons and WE, for instance, will only have Av > 7 if they roll Av increases) and notably less powerful against many others. In fact, the only teams which still have to face the full strength of the claw / mighty blow combo are those teams with many Av 9 players -- like orcs and dwarves -- against which Norse have traditionally not been particularly impressive. |
Not true, claw basicall make ever opponet AV 7 yes, but mods still apply, so when combined with Mighty blow, well everyone is basicall AV 6 so its still VERY nasty |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 12, 2005 - 09:20 PM |
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| CorporateSlave3 wrote: | | One last note (on a possible reason one mgiht 'decide' when to use the modifier): since it already says that any skill use is voluntary, using the word 'decide' to let people know they don't have to use it if they are feeling merciful is already redundant. |
I'll look over the wording of both MBlow and DP again with your comments in mind.
Galak |
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GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 12, 2005 - 09:37 PM |
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| Torellion_Hawkwind wrote: | | Not true, claw basicall make ever opponet AV 7 yes, but mods still apply, so when combined with Mighty blow, well everyone is basicall AV 6 so its still VERY nasty |
But in comparison against an AV 8 player as an example ... its not any better than Claw and Mighty Blow combined in the LRB 4.0. they are both (+2/+1) or Av/inj.
The point with the Snow Troll is starting out ... he's not as good at getting CAS as the other Big Guys as Claw just isn't nearly as good for SPP generation as Mighty Blow is. However as he develops he gets better at it ... however it should be noted that its nothing a Rat Ogre or Minotaur cannot match with a single doubles roll. Since the Norse are always found to be needing some extra bash later in their life cycle ... the Snow Trolling having normal access to Claw/Mighty Blow was deemed ... not a bad thing.
Galak |
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