Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 16:31 |
 
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Back to the original topic. I think there are flaws in thinking the online game is balanced and can be used to answer balancing quesitons. Due to the sheer number of players here there is a lot of cherry picking and dodging. Why? Because you can. In most tabletop leagues you dont have the luxury of "avoiding" the chaos team.
Because of that there are many agility teams who are skewing the win/loss %s because they don't play a representative number of races. Now it's every coaches personal choice who they play. The problem is looking at race win/loss %s and thinking they aren't flawed. |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 16:43 |
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thx for the first on-topic posting Mully...
I think you are perfectly right. Dodging games is fumbbl's major problem.
In addition even when you play all races in a sound distribution, there is also the fact that you play even strength matches on fumbbl. Not even Team Rating, but even strength!
now there are 2 ways to look at this: in matchup balance, in my oppinion even strenght is the way matchups should be balanced. but there is no strength value in the official rules...in league/campaign balance, there should be a couple of "easy" games since that is the way sports leagues work, and you do not get these kind of games on fumbbl.
but the play by email leagues are diffrent as far as i know? |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 28, 2004 - 17:19 |
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As I've said since last spring, it is my personal opinion that you would be much happier if you were to quit wasting your time arguing and trying to get others to work for you and instead use that energy to make your own league. Run it exactly how you'd like and then throw your undoubtedly impressive results in our faces and say, "I told you so." Then we get move onto arguing about the interpretations of the results, like gentlemen. 
Really. Knock it off and make your own bloody league already. Serious. I've given you links to tools that all but do it for you. I'll even help customize the package for you as a payment if you just quit nagging people to implement your ideas. Implement them yourself! |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 17:29 |
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| Quote: |
but the play by email leagues are diffrent as far as i know?
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No not really. PBEM "leagues" are different, just like online FUMMBL leagues. But PBEM challenge ladders have the same issues as you can pick and choose who you play.
It would be interesting to calculate results from the various FUMBBL leagues as to which races tend to win more and which tend to lose at different TR levels. But of course, you'd need to find a league that actually lasted long enough. (<-- dig) |
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 17:42 |
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BadMrMojo i just want to inform you that i am going to completely ignore you from now on since you fail to grasp the original topic at all times. |
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Jugular
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 28, 2004 - 17:43 |
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Thx for the arrogant posting force. I also adressed the topic.......
Aside from your unsupported commenting on the relevance of other posters I do agree with the dodging games argument. Now that we have a Handicap table I don't see why the way in which people choose their games (in terms of team strength) would adversely affect data. I am not aware how manipulable the FUMBBL data is, however, it would be interesting to see either a resetting or a seperation of data since each major change to either the client or the rules could be achieved. Obviously the addition of the Handicap table to the client may have made significant differences to race %s.
In other topics on the forum there have been suggestions of methods for encouraging people to play all races at some point in a teams career. Not only might this provide the impetus for many more coaches to cherry pick less but it could be used as a marker for data collection. Once a team had played each of the races at least once the data from these games might also be presented seperately as a more 'balanced' view of inter race balance and rules effects. Could someone also clarify whether the group leagues data is seperable as these often are more similar to tabletop leagues. Taking FUMBBL data as a whole might be considered unwise partly due to the disposability of open teams. Sorry for the slightly disjointed comments. |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 18:23 |
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I am sorry Juglar i missed your first posting. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 18:49 |
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| Anonymous wrote: | Have you actually followed the discussion on talkbloodbowl.com and bloodbowl.com?...
...But please before you make any comments look up the topics in the other forums. |
And I "fail to grasp the original topic" when you flamed the first 4 people to reply for not bringing in everything else you've ever deigned to share into account?
Heh. Ok. Sure. Whatever. |
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Squaq
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 19:10 |
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| Quote: | Mr-Klipp wrote:
| Quote: | Anonymous wrote:
You are assuming that PC/Online Games would hurt Tabletop/Board games.
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I'm not assuming it, I'm practically quoting from their investor stock reports.
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Now i'm worried!
If it really hurts the Tabletopgame -
is the growing succes of SkiJunkie's client online bound to culminate in an official ban? |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 21:04 |
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Jugular - this is in response to your respone to me
I don't think in open play you can get a truly balanced view of the game even with the whole medal idea. Here is a simple example of what I mean.
Team A is Amazon.
Team B is high elf with all block and tackle
Team C is high elf with all block and sidestep. (same TRs)
In an open setting team A will almost always choose to play team C and ignore team B and would probably do very well against them. In a league setting where they have to play both chances are they would not do as well.
So it's not only races that people dodge, but more likely skills on the opponent's team that creates the "dodging". |
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BunnyPuncher
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 21:17 |
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I'm trying to give give a damn about this topic.. but.. I... just.. can't |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 21:26 |
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Well well Bunny that's that's ok ok |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Jan 28, 2004 - 22:26 |
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Oohh...look at me, i'm a Guest too cause i'm too scared to have people see who i really am. If it's your opinion CLAIM IT instead of hiding behind a computer and preaching your "wisdom" |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 29, 2004 - 04:48 |
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| Squaq wrote: |
Now i'm worried!
If it really hurts the Tabletopgame -
is the growing succes of SkiJunkie's client online bound to culminate in an official ban? |
Short answer: Probably not. They really don't make much of anything on the specialist games, a large part of the reason they are supporting them at all these days is for the goodwill of the fans, that, and the fact that those games are good at attracting people to play their core games. I expect that they won't move against javabbowl because it is sort of complying with their rules on fan use of IP, and at the same time not really costing them any real money, even if it does lost them the sale of a team here and there. That, and the fact that they can just "ignore" it and not have to look like the bad guys and sue some loyal fans of their games. |
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jokklas
Joined: Jan 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 29, 2004 - 09:08 |
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The only thing that would change their attitude to online versions of the board games is if some other company released an online product that many GW followers took a great interest in and had a negative impact on GWs miniature sales. If that most unlikely event should happen GW would probably counterattack (first with a law suit since they seem to want total monopoly over the miniature market and anything related;) with their own online versions.
Of course, in 20 years maybe the ammount of ppl who want to play wih miniature games have dropped (all kids sits in front of consoles nowadays..) and then maybe GW would also change their mind. But who cares if we might get a GW endorsed BB online in 20 years anyway? |
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