Jackbedead
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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 Posted:
Sep 13, 2006 - 20:04 |
 
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Great stuff sk8bcn,
This is one of the things I was trying to get through to everyone. With the weakening of skills like claw, big hand, and tentacles people have started using two skills in their places to catch up. Like, claw+MB, Big Hand+Extra Arms, Tentacles+Tail, but the problem is very clear. Chaos will always be behind on skills and by the time you can skill a player up to that point it's going to be past it's usefulness. An early claw followed with block was all a chaos warrior needed to insure victory for his team or at least the ability to try for it. Now he's way back in the running as far as usefulness and skills.
This is why I keep saying Rotters are so go. With Foul Appearance and Dis Pres the guy already has a couple of 'defensive' skills to make sure he stick around longer, not to mention regenerate. This will allow him to skip block for a few skills and get MB or claw first. Just this tiny change makes a huge impact.
I've started a league at my local store and I'm using Rotters. They've been doing amazingly well so far and I'm really excited that I may be able to take them all the way. A huge boon is rotters, cheap LoS fodder to take the casualty rolls for me. Making the team overall a lot cheaper than chaos too. |
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Hoahoa
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 25, 2006 - 06:13 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | catch on wolf is a game winner skill. mwahahahahahhaha! good joke...whatever.
I ll go back on chaos.
I firmly believe in deep rosters for long term gamestyle and player continuity. So let's I have 14 players. Let's say I aim for 4 rerolls and standart 11 FF (go and see the simulation about FF values in case of you disagree).
I will, for purposes of easiest view on TV, convert TV on a TR basis. Thus if you read 22TV understand 220k on TV. Not much difference but it will avoid LRB4 experts to be confused.
Let's compare orcs with chaos.
A 14 player roster:
Orc:
1 troll 11TV
4 bob 32TV
4blitzers 32TV
2 passers 14TV
3line 15TV
11FF= 11TV
4 rerolls 24TV
apo 5TV
Total:145TV
chaos
1 mino 16TV
4CW 40TV
9 beast 54TV
11 FF 11TV
4rerolls 24TV
apo 5TV
Total 150TV
On orcs I have 4 fairly realiable players to blitz and block (blitzers) + 2 players that help on safety pick up. But yet, my chaos team give away an inducement card or an extra apo.
Now if I could get 4 skills it would be:
Bob get's block (making orcs really safe) TV:153
CW get's block (my lineup gets strong) TV:158
ok now 4 skills more:
Orks: 4 guarders TV: 161
Chaos: 2 safe blitzers (block for beasts and 2 guards): 166
the orks still are safer in ball handling and bashing.
ok skill 9 to 12:
orks: let's go for diversity: 2 more guards, one blitzer gets MB, the other a usefull skill like Strip ball. TV:169
chaos: yet, we have 6 blockers and 2 guards. I pick 2 blockers more, finally reaching orks block level, one MB and 1 guard more. (still 3 guards behind orks) TV: 174
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up to this point, I am yet below ork bash power. But still, that was the case before. You will agree that so far, I couldn't really make a team orientation what I begin to do with orks.
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skill 13-16
ork: PO on the MB player, block on a thrower for a good thrower, a BOB get's SF, a blitzer get's tackle to be more versatile. TV: 177.
Honestly, the team get's pretty serious, don't you think?
Chaos: I add 2 guards for a total of 5. My Mino get's claw. I want one to get a line enforcer with juggernaut. I almost starting to diversify my team. TV 182.
Spirraling expenses and current status:
Starting roster Ork:
troll: guard
bob: block+guard+SF
bob: block+guard
bob: block+guard
bob: block+guard
blizter:block+guard
blizter:block+guard+tackle
blizter:block+strip ball
blizter:block+MB+PO
passer: pass+sure hands+block
passer: pass+sure hands
chaos
Mino: guard+claw
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
beastman:block+MB
beastman:block+juggernaut
beastman:block
beastman:block
beastman:
beastman:
I think you see where we go.
4 next skills
orcs:1 block on passer, 2nd SF, tackle, MB
chaos: I want to fill my team with block so 2 blocks, I am yet a bit light on guard, 1 guard, +1 PO for the beast.
TV 190 for chaos 20k in sustain.
I win half my games, get fame once out of 2 occurences, 57k in average in winnings so 37k of winnings. The slow down is evident.
=> that was thus my 1st point: you are already well hit by spirraling expenses when you start to have a lineup that enters into his "diversify" time.
57k winnings in average. How many loss averages? let's say 1 player out of 3 games at cost of 60k. That a replacement average of 20k/game.
TV 190=>37k effective winning average-20k of replacement rate=>17k left. Let's round up to 20k!
I have so reach my peak in about 30TV (TV 220). After that I start to have incomes lower than Spirraling Exp+replacement costs.
I estimated so far I only take simple and didn't picked a 5th reroll what is not common mentallity at high TV. Another reroll would have meant TV of 196.
I have a cap of 15 skills
chaos
Mino: guard+claw
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
CW:block+guard
beastman:block+MB+PO
beastman:block+juggernaut
beastman:block+guard
beastman:block
beastman:block
beastman:block
What do I pick:claw+guard+strip ball+surehands+big hand+claw+Mb+PO+2*SF
5 skill choice left. mmmmmm.
FA*2+kick+ grab+frenzy
Final roster:
Mino: guard+claw
CW:block+guard+SF
CW:block+guard+SF
CW:block+guard+FA
CW:block+guard+FA
beastman:block+MB+PO+claw+frenzy
beastman:block+juggernaut+strip ball+grab
beastman:block+guard
beastman:block+guard
beastman:block+sure hands+big hand+kick
beastman:block+claw+PO+MB
nice team, isn't it?
I would do very good results with such a line up, BUT:
it's my peak!!! I mean this is my team before falling down: and I counted a player loss rate of 1 every 3 games. I loose currently more than that.
I played the full phase before weaker in bash power!
My bash power is just concentrated in 2 players!
I considered I could skill then just AS I WANT and never ever skill up a substitute.
Under LRB4, a team at TR 220 was the point were I considered chaos to be really effective. Now it represents their peak. That's why I consider chaos to be weaker now than before.
ps: by peak I mean: you will still increase your TV but your treasury will get lower and lower: it's the start of your decrease. 100k in bank gives you a breath room to build with, but true expension is over. |
Well done, great calculation. Now imho Chaos has more potential. Jump up on a BoB means a 3+ roll to get a free block, Jump up on a chaos warrior is a 2+ roll. Chaos has better statistics in the end and therefore alot more potential. If i would roll a double on a BoB i would consider Dodge, on a chaos warrior jump up. Also, your team lacks shadowers and tails. Also your sure hands+Big hand Beastman would skill to quickly compared to the rest of the team. You also forgot to get wrestle on a beastman or two, could come in handy in some situations. Especially if you get a +ma on a beastman, he would make the perfect blitzer vs a wall of elfs near the end zone. Also, Tackle of course! I tried out a goblin team under LRB 5. I put all the weapons on at once, a really sad mistake now in the aftermath, i should have only had 2 at the time. Still those chaos won with 3-1 and got 6-1 in cas. Really sad game. But i was allowed by our commisioner to start a new team. So now i play orks =) We also adopted the optional rule of Free FF. You can get a really nice Orc Team that way.
4bob
4blitzers
1thrower
2lineorcs
3RR
10k (for that future Troll) |
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Vanguard
Joined: Nov 01, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 04:12 |
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i compare chaos with chaos dwarfs and beginn to cry
ok chaos can take mutation without a trait and on all guys ... but which is really usefull ?
claw is even too now ... why ? yeah its less usefull vs av 7 and 8 and alone vs av 9 same .. and not many av 10 guys around .... but add mighty blow and you see a totaly different story
claw + mighty blow = +3 vs av 9 and this is the key ... elfs will die like all times with av7 and mighty blow but orcs will also fall
but why dont chaos benefit from that ?
simply they need to many starting skills ... and are hard to skill and with av8 its not really a long live garant |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 07:01 |
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In the LRB 5 league I play in, I must say that there are not as many deaths as you would think. The only problem I see with LRB 5 is that I can no longer play fumbbl. LRB 4 is inferior to LRB 5. Thus ruining it for me. Not many guys liked it in our 16 man league in the start, but ALL have now admitted after 2 seasons that it is much better. No need to argue, because you cant argue against something you have not tried more than a game or two. Try it Vanguard, and who ever else, youll most likely like it in the long run. Its a shame fumbbl is still played 4, because its not much fun any more. |
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The Drunker I get, the more I spill
"Keggie is the guy with the bleach blond hair that gives answers nobody else would think of."
Jeffro |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 07:35 |
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| keggiemckill wrote: | | No need to argue, because you cant argue against something you have not tried more than a game or two. |
sure i can
i don't like the idea of getting shot in the head, and i never have, so you're saying i should try it, maybe i'll like it?
it's an extreme example, yes, but it's still appropriate...
LRB5 is a chance for galak to show how "awesome" his rules are, and it has come off as nothing more than a steaming pile of crap...
get over it, and i'll have my big bag of "cry me a river, i told you so" when you come crying about how you miss LRB4
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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deckerCKY
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 07:59 |
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wow...you take that so personally shadow
I read through this and have a few things to add in favour of chaos. Because the comparison with nurgle has been used so much, I'll mostly compare these too:
60k rerolls and don't need FF to start: This allows a starting roster of 7 beastmen and 4 warriors with 3 rerolls or 7 beastmen, 3 warriors and a mino with 2 rerolls. Both very strong, getting you a far better starting lineup than was available in LRB5. Probably one of the most improved starting lineups.
Nurgle by comparison has a really hard time choosing between expensive rerolls, pestigors, warriors and the beast. You really have to be careful starting out with this team since a slightly unlucky team will leave you in a bad place. Nobody has mentioned that their rotters are the opposite of zombies for the same price. Zombies reliably take hits and stick around. Regen is a huge benefit since you'd never use an apoth on them anyways. Rotters are the most fragile model in the game. 5/36 casualties on them will be RIPs. Heck, its 25% to get a BH with these guys. Also, while regen is better than apoth, you only have 4 decent ball carriers. If any one dies, you have an 80k player to buy. Chaos will have the rest of the team to fill in. If this team gets in a rut, it will have a really hard time getting out. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 09:27 |
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Chaos will always have a place in my heart.
As for being nerfed i disagree completely. Taking away traits make them very dangerous.
Still wish they would have let the CWs come with block.
__Synn |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 10:20 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | keggiemckill wrote: | | No need to argue, because you cant argue against something you have not tried more than a game or two. |
sure i can
i don't like the idea of getting shot in the head, and i never have, so you're saying i should try it, maybe i'll like it?
it's an extreme example, yes, but it's still appropriate...
LRB5 is a chance for galak to show how "awesome" his rules are, and it has come off as nothing more than a steaming pile of crap...
get over it, and i'll have my big bag of "cry me a river, i told you so" when you come crying about how you miss LRB4
--j |
Does that also mean you might think playing the Nintendo Wii would be shooting yourself in the head?  
***Edit***
For the record, it is extremely unfair to call these Galaks rules. Anything he added/removed he asked feedback on and if it didnt get 80% support, it didnt get done. There are things he had to put in, as JJ vetoed it, such as DE Assassins etc. Call me a fanboy if you like... but I feel compelled to stand up for the innocent party
The amount of utter crap he took in those years was certainly more than I could take, he finished PBBL as he promised he would, and Im grateful for it
I couldnt care less if you dont like it... fine, who am i to tell you what to like! the rest of the BB community will move on regardless. Tournaments and leagues have been running for some time and guess what... where are the shouts of "this sucks", a good number of vault haters have even said (dont even ask me to quote them) they were suprised how well it worked and how much they liked it |
Last edited by SnakeSanders on %b %05, %2006 - %10:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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Arcon
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 10:30 |
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fen
Joined: Sep 10, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 10:58 |
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| deckerCKY wrote: | | Nurgle by comparison has a really hard time choosing between expensive rerolls, pestigors, warriors and the beast. You really have to be careful starting out with this team since a slightly unlucky team will leave you in a bad place. Nobody has mentioned that their rotters are the opposite of zombies for the same price. Zombies reliably take hits and stick around. Regen is a huge benefit since you'd never use an apoth on them anyways. Rotters are the most fragile model in the game. 5/36 casualties on them will be RIPs. Heck, its 25% to get a BH with these guys. Also, while regen is better than apoth, you only have 4 decent ball carriers. If any one dies, you have an 80k player to buy. Chaos will have the rest of the team to fill in. If this team gets in a rut, it will have a really hard time getting out. |
Not really, once you start playing with Nurgle you begin to see the advantages of the team design. The Rotters, by their very nature, are Journeymen. Doesn't matter if they die, you don't bother buying new ones until all your positionals are recruited. Disposable 40K linemen are fantastic in LRB5, they keep your Team Value lower, which lets you field an Igor every match. Oh and as a bonus they have the best statline of every 40K player, so honestly who cares that they get badly smashed in on CAS results? (Oh and they're not the most fragile in the game, Stunties, Skeletons and 6337/Thralls/Hobgoblins are at least as fragile.)
As for the starting roster? That's considered pretty simple as well, search around and you'll already find a consensus on a roster that exceeds Chaos in every aspect apart from Rerolls. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 11:30 |
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Chaos have been savaged. Whilst I kinda like the change to claw and removal of razor sharp claws, now a Chaos team will get danced around by elves who have little to fear. You have to tailor the team to the type of opposition. Foul appearance is now pretty poor, actually it's useless. Big hand is now a fairly ineffective skill although two arms is now worthwhile. Two arms, very long legs, and you have +2 to interceptions and get to ignore safe throw. Tentacles is now rubbish with the additional +1 modifier. I don't know whether the weakening of mutations but making them accessible on normal rolls is a good or a bad thing.
I like the fact you can't use multiple block and frenzy at the same time. I do not like the 'loner' introduction - big guys just got a whole lot better [i.e. almost have pro except it costs a reroll]. |
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deckerCKY
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 18:58 |
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Well, the mino with mutations on normal rolls is a boost, likely as good as a troll was.
Tents on S5 lets them get more blocks on (don't waste blitz's to get blocks in). And S5 is still gonna stop alot of dodges.
Claw/MB after one skill will cause alot of havoc on alot of rosters.
The 5 skills that really are worth it on a mino are SF, guard, tents, guard and juggernaught, but I'd be tempted to avoid taking jugger first skill or so in hopes of doubles.
60k rerolls will really ease alot of the pain on the team with lowered income, as well as keep down TR.
Otherwise, I've never had trouble in LRB4 with a chaos team that failed to roll many doubles. MB/tacklers tear apart elves plenty good (better than LRB4 claw/tacklers), and your team ends up with a nice mix of guard, tackle and mighty blow. Along with horns, decent agility and speed, the lineup isn't bad at all. Adding in extra strength skills, weakened mutations on normal rolls, frenzy in general etc.. is a boost to that. Aside from a VLL/leaper or two, I don't think the team really needs double rolls. Maybe a passer, but even that isn't super necessary.
Oh, and against the elves who'll dance around beasts and all that, remember than chaos is one of the few teams that will have VLL on their team most of the time. One of the few teams that can properly deal with the DE runners and the like.
PS: Somebody was talking about taking wrestle on a leap/strip ball beast. The two combos are wrestle/tackle and juggernaught/strip ball IMO. |
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rostern
Joined: Jun 12, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 05, 2006 - 19:22 |
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Cindy is back?
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