FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 14:54

Eddy wrote:

Of course i would still have one. In fact, it changes nothing. Because my B&C and my Saw are valued pretty high in TS, everyone knows that, it's readily available information.

so in other words...you loaded up on stars, probably hoping for a cupcake match(and that's completely speculation, but i wouldn't be shocked at all), and now you're team got a bad luck draw, and since your team can't compete at the higher bracket, you're complaining about it?...

.....

how is this anyone's fault but your own?

Eddy wrote:

On the other hand, a fling team with lots of skills, including doubles, and 3 Chefs, is apparently not valued very high. That was my initial point, which you most likely skipped, since you were so eager to start a fight.

while yes, multiple people agree that flings are underrated, myself included, how about stating that fact without whining anytime someone counters your points with very valid points as to why the match wasn't unfair?....

--j

_________________

origami wrote:

There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

Eddy

Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 15:13

shadow46x2 wrote:

so in other words...you loaded up on stars, probably hoping for a cupcake match(and that's completely speculation, but i wouldn't be shocked at all)

I loaded on stars because that's why i'm playing Goblins: to have fun and mayhem.

Quote:

and now you're team got a bad luck draw

Ah, so you admit the game was not so balanced, then. Thanks, but you could have said it from the start, it would have spared some forum space.

Quote:

and since your team can't compete at the higher bracket, you're complaining about it?...

I'm putting forward an example of what i think is not a fair match, which is the point of this thread, unless i'm mistaken in understanding it's title.

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how is this anyone's fault but your own?

You said yourself it was a "bad luck draw". It cannot really be my fault, now, can it?

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while yes, multiple people agree that flings are underrated, myself included

But that didn't prevent you from countering my point anyway, right?
Same old shadow, champion of whatever cause, as long as there's some forum flaming in it =)

Quote:

how about stating that fact without whining anytime someone counters your points with very valid points as to why the match wasn't unfair?....

Whining? Wow, that powerful argument that hasn't ever been used before in any forum discussion in FUMBBL!
I don't see where i was whining. But of course, if when someone counters me they're using "valid points", and if i counter them i"m "whining", i don't have much chance of winning an argument, right?

And it's all about winning arguments over the web for you =) You're a winner, man, keep it up!

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou

SillySod

Joined: Oct 10, 2006

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 16:14

Eddy if you get nothing else from this then download the alternative javabowl replayer. You can find it here or in the FUMBBL downloads section. Try it out, it will completely change the way you value replays.

Quote:

Because my B&C and my Saw are valued pretty high in TS, everyone knows that, it's readily available information. On the other hand, a fling team with lots of skills, including doubles, and 3 Chefs, is apparently not valued very high.

Woah woah woah... if the saw/fanatic are rated high and the flings had a higher TS than you... how are the flings not rated very high at all? Also when you say that the luck is often has an exagerated effect during a mismatch, bearing in mind that the luck was 61% vs 43%, I'd say that suggests it wasnt a mismatch since he didnt exactly wipe the floor with you despite the massive luck difference.

Ok, ignoring that and looking at the two teams involved. Naamas halflings have the following things going for them:
- 3 reserves (really flings want 5 though)
- a dirty player (again they can afford 2-3 but it is an advantage)
- an AG4 halflings (which is great)
- 2 trees, one unskilled and the other with block/guard
- a heavy sprinkling of DT, 7 players to be precise (two with sidestep)
- 4 RR and 3 chef rolls

Your goblins have the following assets:
- two secret weapons, a ball and chain and a chainsaw
- two trolls with a skill each
- an agility 4 goblin
- 6 sidesteppers
- a full 5 reserves
- 3 RR

Without the masterchefs I think your team is actually noticably stronger, your basic roster (before freebooters) effectively matches him player for player except that:
- his trees are stronger
- all your goblins are tougher and faster than all his halflings (this is not insignificant)
- he has a dirty player (lets face it, on average this wont do much more damage than being av 6)

Now all those things pretty much balance out so you're left looking at the freebooters. Two secret weapons vs three chef rolls, I think the chef rolls are definately stronger but they arent -that- much stronger. To be honest they certainly arent more than 9TS stronger ... so I think the formula has got it right. However, there are several factors which meant his team was very well suited to beating yours:
- diving tackle is very effective against other stunties (sidestep tends to be better in general)
- he had exactly the right number of chef rolls
- you a secret weapon that requires a ton of RR
- these things would be mostly counterbalanced by your chainsaw... but it never really did anything

Basicly I dont think you're reading the value of the halfling team right, it had some nice things about it but it isnt better than you'd expect for 129TS.

_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.

"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."

Last edited by SillySod on %b %06, %2009 - %18:%Jan; edited 1 time in total

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 16:32

Eddy wrote:

Quote:

and now you're team got a bad luck draw

Ah, so you admit the game was not so balanced, then. Thanks, but you could have said it from the start, it would have spared some forum space.

um...

no?...

did i say that?...i said you got a bad luck draw...you ran with a team that relies on rerolls to succeed, and drew a team that negates said rerolls....how is that me saying the game was not balanced?.....

flings against ogres would be a bad luck draw too....but it can still be a balanced fight....

bad luck draw != unbalanced..

thanks for playing

Eddy wrote:

Quote:

and since your team can't compete at the higher bracket, you're complaining about it?...

I'm putting forward an example of what i think is not a fair match, which is the point of this thread, unless i'm mistaken in understanding it's title.

that's all fine and dandy....but the point of the comment is that *you* were in control of the TS level of your team, and *YOU* put the team into a higher bracket than they were ready for...

so how is it the system's fault when *YOU* are the one who put them into that position?

Eddy wrote:

Quote:

while yes, multiple people agree that flings are underrated, myself included

But that didn't prevent you from countering my point anyway, right?
Same old shadow, champion of whatever cause, as long as there's some forum flaming in it =)

yes i countered your point...because while, yes, i would like to see the TS system re-evaluated...i want to see it re-evaluated for legitimate reasons...not because you had a bad game....

Eddy wrote:

And it's all about winning arguments over the web for you =) You're a winner, man, keep it up!

i had a nice retort to this, but frankly, the fact that you even consider any argument on here as a win/loss situation, is pure ludicrous...

have fun with that..

--j

_________________

origami wrote:

There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

Eddy

Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 16:43

SillySod wrote:

Eddy if you get nothing else from this then download the alternative javabowl replayer. You can find it here or in the FUMBBL downloads section. Try it out, it will completely change the way you value replays.

Thanks SillySod. I'm already using this, indeed wonderful, tool.
The fact remains that you don't see everything in a replay (complete blocks, for one thing), and that you're not "caught in the moment". It can be a good thing for certain things, but not for all. That's why i thought your initial commentary was misplaced. But i do value your input (you're a better coach than i am... and so is Naama, the flings' coach, by the way, no doubt), and i most likely did some mistakes in this game.

Quote:

Woah woah woah... if the saw/fanatic are rated high and the flings had a higher TS than you... how are the flings not rated very high at all?

Well, that's the point: because i'm not really sure 3 Chefs and more skills are worth "only" that, even though their TS was higher.

Quote:

Also when you say that the luck is often has an exagerated effect during a mismatch, bearing in mind that the luck was 61% vs 43%, I'd say that suggests it wasnt a mismatch since he didnt exactly wipe the floor with you despite the massive luck difference.

Well, he did win this game with a +7 CAS difference =D But i hear you.

Quote:

Ok, ignoring that and looking at the two teams involved.
- 2 trees, one unskilled and the other with block/guard

They both have Guard.

Quote:

Basicly I dont think you're reading the value of the halfling team right, it had some nice things about it but it isnt better than you'd expect for 129TS.

I won't discuss every single point of detail of your analysis. Maybe you're right (i mean that). Maybe the game was "balanced enough". Naama won fair and square anyway, i just felt the game was not quite balanced from the start, and figured maybe the TS formula was still not correct for stunties.
I didn't want to hijack this thread in talking of my own game extensively.

Thanks for your detailed answer anyway =)

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou

Eddy

Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 16:51

shadow46x2 wrote:

um...

no?...

did i say that?...i said you got a bad luck draw...you ran with a team that relies on rerolls to succeed, and drew a team that negates said rerolls....how is that me saying the game was not balanced?.....

flings against ogres would be a bad luck draw too....but it can still be a balanced fight....

bad luck draw != unbalanced..

thanks for playing

LOL
If it's balanced, then it doesn't need to be good luck or bad luck, since it's BALANCED. You're making no sense. At all.

Quote:

that's all fine and dandy....but the point of the comment is that *you* were in control of the TS level of your team, and *YOU* put the team into a higher bracket than they were ready for...

so how is it the system's fault when *YOU* are the one who put them into that position?

Since the game is supposed to be balanced using the TS formula, how do you defend the idea that i put them in a TS bracket they were "not ready for"? I mean, TS is supposed to accurately represent Team Strength. Saying your team is not ready for it's TS bracket is nonsense.

Quote:

yes i countered your point...because while, yes, i would like to see the TS system re-evaluated...i want to see it re-evaluated for legitimate reasons...not because you had a bad game....

Ok, so you think that TS is bad, but when i say "i think TS is bad, and here's a game that illustrates it", suddenly i'm "whining"? Are you saying that TS happened to be correct only for my game, then?

Quote:

i had a nice retort to this, but frankly, the fact that you even consider any argument on here as a win/loss situation, is pure ludicrous...

Considering you're the one who said "have fun with that" at the end of your first paragraph, and considering you constantly pick up fights with everyone who dares voice an opinion you disagree with, i'd say i have good reason to believe that you are, indeed, doing that for sports =) Have fun with that!

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 18:00

Eddy wrote:

LOL
If it's balanced, then it doesn't need to be good luck or bad luck, since it's BALANCED. You're making no sense. At all.

so...

dorfs and amazons, both at TS120...

would you consider this balanced?...i would....i'd also consider it a bad luck draw for the amazons....despite the fact that the match is even for all intents and purposes, the amazons are at an obvious disadvantage....

Eddy wrote:

Since the game is supposed to be balanced using the TS formula, how do you defend the idea that i put them in a TS bracket they were "not ready for"? I mean, TS is supposed to accurately represent Team Strength. Saying your team is not ready for it's TS bracket is nonsense.

it certainly isn't...there are ways to artificially inflate a team's TS beyond what they are capable of...

how many coaches on here are supporters of balancing SPPs across your team?...i would wager you are too, right?...

now...*why* do we do this tactic?....so that if something happens to that one unbalanced player that has 200+SPPs compared to 10SPP on the rest of the team, the rest of the squadron is able to compete...

now, take a team that is a TS100 team, and put a star on them, that bloats them up to TS120...say...for example, a ball and chain?....particularly one that is reroll intensive, and has a tendency to screw a team over if there is not plenty of rerolls to balance out the randomness....

and what happens when that player is dealt with on turn 1?....congrats, you have a TS100 team going against a TS120 team....*there* is your unbalanced matchup, and therein lies the point that you were competing at a level that your team wasn't ready for....because *YOU* chose to unbalance the rest of the team by hiring stars that were easily dealt with...

--j

_________________

origami wrote:

There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

SillySod

Joined: Oct 10, 2006

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 18:13

Arrgghh, sorry I linked an old download which wont work properly. I've now edited the link to the current (and working) version Smile

_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.

"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."

Eddy

Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 18:33

shadow46x2 wrote:

so...

dorfs and amazons, both at TS120...

would you consider this balanced?...i would....i'd also consider it a bad luck draw for the amazons....despite the fact that the match is even for all intents and purposes, the amazons are at an obvious disadvantage....

So the match is even... but the 'zons are at "an obvious disadvantage". Keep it up, it's funny =)

Quote:

it certainly isn't...there are ways to artificially inflate a team's TS beyond what they are capable of...

What you don't seem to get is that if TS is to be an ACCURATE DEPICTION OF A TEAM'S STRENGTH, then it shouldn't go beyond what they are capable of.

And if indeed you say that my Gobbos are too high in TS to compete, then it shows that TS is broken and doesn't succeed at its intent. Which makes my post entirely well-placed in a thread dealing with fair matches when "fair" is based upon TS.

Quote:

how many coaches on here are supporters of balancing SPPs across your team?...i would wager you are too, right?...

now...*why* do we do this tactic?....so that if something happens to that one unbalanced player that has 200+SPPs compared to 10SPP on the rest of the team, the rest of the squadron is able to compete...

That's one of the reasons. Another one is that, with the same amount of SPPs, you get more skills if you spread them out.

Quote:

now, take a team that is a TS100 team, and put a star on them, that bloats them up to TS120...say...for example, a ball and chain?....particularly one that is reroll intensive, and has a tendency to screw a team over if there is not plenty of rerolls to balance out the randomness....

and what happens when that player is dealt with on turn 1?....congrats, you have a TS100 team going against a TS120 team....*there* is your unbalanced matchup, and therein lies the point that you were competing at a level that your team wasn't ready for....because *YOU* chose to unbalance the rest of the team by hiring stars that were easily dealt with...

So if this star is so easily dealt with, maybe it's TS cost is not right, don't you think? Maybe it's TS cost should be balanced against other factors. In which case, see my first point: my posting about this game is totally relevant if it highlights wrong TS-costing of a star in certain circumstances.

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 18:40

congratulations eddy..

you're so deluded in your fanaticism, that you fail to see anything other than your own whining...

enjoy

--j

_________________

origami wrote:

There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

Eddy

Joined: Aug 04, 2004

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 18:49

congratulations shadow..

you're so deluded in your fanaticism, that you fail to see anything other than your own fight-picking, three dots-abusing, tiresome know-it-all attitude...

enjoy

--a

_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou

Shrap

Joined: Sep 18, 2006

Posted: Jan 06, 2009 - 19:47

This makes me feel like it's X-mas all over again...ahhh family!

ganave

Joined: Jan 28, 2008

Posted: Jan 07, 2009 - 04:53

Not sure how this rates for unbalanced match-ups in B, but my 136/131 dark elves were matched up against a 164/154 chaos team ( http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=2494851 ). A whopping difference of -28/-23. Thankfully Sionis didn't try to maim my poor dark elves.

westerner

Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Posted: Jan 07, 2009 - 04:56

Given your 2 handi's, it rates at -13TS, almost at the -15TS limit. Which happens to everyone at least occasionally.

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