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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 06:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello All!

I like designing stuff. I don't do lots of game design, and usually when I'm designing things, I'm the one in charge, and so I can design it any way I want and then improvise it to make it work; so I expect my designs to have flaws (possibly lots). But I love stunty, and I love fantasy football, and so I wanted to suggest something. (My suggestion for regular fantasy football got shot down, but it was on the overpowered side, so I can live with that.) I also have a feeling I need a different name for them, but oh well.

With that in mind, ever since I've been here, I've been dying to see a team based around a wizard's mad creations. Probably a dark elf wizard. Someone who makes stuff for dark purposes - and then goes and gets himself killed. Suddenly all his creations are without purpose. So they band together, and try to do the things the wizard originally intended them to do. And people don't like them - and then.. they find Stunty Leeg. And they realise - here is a place where we can cause Mayhem and Carnage, and not only will we not get killed on sight for it, but people will watch and scream as we do it!

And so the Red Caps join Stunty Leeg. The Red Caps were created to be soldiers, scouts and servants to the wizard. They were tiny, but unlike most fey creatures, they were not created to be unseen or unheard. They were meant to terrorize and steal, to hurt and to maim, to collect and to kidnap. The Red Caps did have leaders though; these were the smart ones, the ones who DID know how to hide, how to use shadows to sneak up on their victims, how to follow a target for days before pouncing. The Red Caps follow these Night Masks wherever they go. But other things were created by the wizard - gargoyles who would defend his magnificent mansion, belching balls of lightning to incinerate intruders, and turning to stone when someone tried to see what had attacked them. Ropers, living columns that supported the wizard's huge home, that would reach out and snag any intruders and hold them until the wizard arrived to 'talk' to his guests; although sometimes the Ropers would get hungry and simply eat the visitor. And others too, although none in the quantity of these 4. And the Dark Elf Wizard knew that his creations would attack each other; and so he bred them to work together. With his loss, the Ropers and Gargoyles are entirely dependent on the murders of Red Caps who bring them food, or help them get somewhere where they can collect food. And so when the Red Caps found Stunty Leeg, the other creations came with the Red Caps, offering their strength to the team.

The Red Caps have yet to find a sponsor willing to back them into entering the Leeg; but hopefully, as various sponsors examine the Red Caps, the creations of the dead wizard will be tweaked until they demonstrate talents that will guarantee their place on the pitch.

The Roster:
0-2 Roper 3/6/1/8, Take Root, Loner, Tentacles, Stand Firm, Throw Teammate, Always Hungry, Extra Arms, Catch, SP (GA), 130k
0-2 Gargoyle 4/3/3/9, Bombardier, Stand Firm, Take Root, Thick Skull, A (GSP), 90k
0-2 Night Mask 7/1/3/6, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Shadowing, Side Step GA (SP), 60k
0-16 Red Cap 6/1/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, S (GAP), 30k

Re-rolls: 60k
Apothecary: Purchaseable for 50k

Mechanics Comments:
The Ropers are the team big guys; Strength 6 is because the majority of the team is Strength 1. I wanted to emphasize their ability and purpose to hold on to things rather than their bash however, and thus they get grab instead of a damage skill, and their multitude of tentacles is reflected in the various catch skills, and a big guy with passing access seemed cool.
The Gargoyles are the crazy guys on the team; in stunty, I think every team needs a crazy guy, and bombardier is certainly crazy; the Gargoyles could make really good ball handlers or blitzers, but their tendency to freeze (take root) when looked at kind of shoots that down. Jump Up reflects a gargoyles wings which can be used for short distances.
Night Caps are the ball carriers and the blitzers; speed, G access, but countered by S1; it is still Stunty.
Red Caps are the linos; but unlike other stunties, they don't get A access, they get S access. They do still start with dodge, which is a double roll for them, but they don't have G access, so they still won't have the dreaded blodge; and they start with stab which makes S access less useful than normal, especially on S1 players.

The prices are rough; my main concern is the Roper probably seems much too low on paper, but P access and ball skills probably won't do him much good, even with Agi 2. If it really is a problem, I'll reduce to Agi 1. The gargoyle might also be an issue, but I have a feeling he is overpriced right now due to take root, so I'm happy where I'm at.


Last edited by Nelphine on Feb 27, 2012 - 15:57; edited 7 times in total
Olesh



Joined: Jun 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 07:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Just a quick reply here: You seem to have spent quite a bit of time on fluff here, but - and I don't want you to take this badly - not as much on the roster.

I'm not really sure what the overarching gimmick of the team is, but you have far, far too many skills for a starting roster. I'm not going to get into the pricing yet because there are too many issues with the roster as-written.

I mean, Stab linemen? Really? A Treeman analogue that starts with MA3 and a bunch of receiving skills on top of Tentacles and Grab? A Bombadier who is AV10 and starts with Jump Up?

It's all over the place, and while I admire the font of your creativity I do think that you should start a bit smaller. My suggestion to you is to use the existing Stunty teams as examples, not just in terms of pricing but also as a demonstration for what a reasonable number of starting skills is on any given player.

Remember, you want players to have room to grow! Any given player can have up to six skill ups if it survives long enough. If you can't think of at least five useful (non-doubles) skills that you'd want give to a player that it doesn't already have, it's a pretty good sign that you're either dealing with a Big Guy or with a player that has too many skills out of the box and needs to lose a few to provide room for expansion.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 07:43 Reply with quote Back to top

overarching gimmick: Big guys that don't block well, and stunties that do all the blocking.

Stab on linemen is due to fluff; I don't really mind if I lose it, but then I end up with 20k linemen (and only other way to increase their price is to up speed, which would be way too good, up AV, which I think is bad in stunty, or add more skills, which you don't seem to want).

Although, I suppose I could make them S 2, and drop the Roper to S 5, and drop stab off the Red Caps; but then I have S 2 with S access, which I'm not sure about in stunty.

The AV 10 bombardier is partially because I've almost never seen bombs in action, so that's an 'on paper' player. At the same time, I could live with it losing jump up, since it has A access anyway and could get it later.

The Roper, well, it has a lot of skills. But consider how useful they actually are; and compare to say a BoN or a Minotaur; it has about the same number as them, but in any sense of the word, the Ropers extra skills are simply not as useful; a big guy who can catch is interesting, but it's a gimmick, completely, and not a game breaking one. However, I don't mind giving up grab; I took that as a replacement for not having mighty blow (which, for a big guy, is a big problem).

One of the things about the team - the big guys are bad at getting cas, so they won't get SPP. The little guys are S1, so THEY won't last long enough to get SPP. The team is going to collect skills slower than most; so I didn't think having extra (not useful on the player who has it) starting skills would be a problem. Stab is obviously more controversial; but if the Red Cap gets one skill, say, Mighty Blow, will he really want to USE stab and not collect SPP? I think stab is specifically going to become less useful as the player gets more skills.
Ullakkomorko



Joined: Aug 10, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 08:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Multi Block is a Strength skill so the red caps would be a real terror at only one skill. They'd just stab everything to death and then collect spp's from scoring. Not that they need spp's as they'd be perfect at just one skill.
Buur



Joined: Apr 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 08:03 Reply with quote Back to top

It seems like you should be directed to the Animal teams FTW! thread.

-Buur

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 08:14 Reply with quote Back to top

hum. all right, stab seems to be too strong. I'll take that out.
MisterFurious



Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 08:38 Reply with quote Back to top

" the Ropers extra skills are simply not as useful"

Then why does he have them? Just because? Giving him Extra Arms and Catch on top of 2 AG makes him a 6 ST ball carrier. Sure, he's only got 3 MV and Take Root, so the odds of him getting to the endzone are slim, but he can still carry the ball until he takes root and then hold it until the end of the half and then hand it off to someone else to score. You should drop the Extra Arms and Catch and lower his AG to 1.

Also, 6 ST on a guy that starts with Tentacles is crazy good. The Beast of Nurgle is great at holding guys down in regular Blood Bowl. This guy has 6 ST in a league were the average ST is 2. That's bonkers. He's also got Grab which is a fantastic skill for a Tentacle guy and a top pick skill for the Beast of Nurgle. This guy starts with it and has more ST than the Beast. The main draw of the Nurgling team is that they have two Beasts of Nurgle on their roster. This guy is far better than the Beast of Nurgle. This team would make the Nurgling team pretty redundant. Drop Grab and let players take it on a skill up later. Stand Firm is also a fantastic skill for a tentacle guy and is often the first or second pick for the Beast of Nurgle however, I don't think it's too good for this guy to start with it, so, in my opinion, it's OK to leave that one on.

Stab sucks in regular Blood Bowl, but the Stunty Leeg is full of guys that are AV 5-7, which makes it a very potent skill and far too good to put on the linemen. Plus, the main draw of the Forest Goblin team is the four stabbers on the roster. This team would make them redundant. Also, stabbers shouldn't get easy access to Multiple Block.

As Olesh said, an AV 10 bomber would be crazy good. I don't get why a gargoyle would have Bombardier anyway. Also, the Bombardier skill completely negates the drawbacks of the guy, which is his low MV and Take Root. Take Root isn't so bad when you have a long distance attack! I like the idea of a gargoyle roadblock, something similar to the Necromantic Flesh Golem. I don't like them having 5 MV and 10 AV, though. I think 4 MV and 9 AV would be better. 3 MV and 10 AV is a possibility, but that makes them too much like the Ropers. I like the Stand Firm, but not the Jump Up so much. Thick Skull is fine, too. I'd say give him S access instead of A access, too, since he's slow and strong.

The Night Masks look OK to me. The Red Caps need to loose stab. I don't know about a S access lineman, but I guess you could make it work.
the_Sage



Joined: Jan 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 09:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Tentacles is better in stunty than in normal BB. And ST6 tentacles with stand firm and grab is the kind of thing you build a big guy towards in stunty. Starting with it makes them far too good, and that's ignoring AG2, catch, extra arms. I think your extra arms aspect is nice in terms of fluff, but I'd advise you to examine the roster as pure crunch, just to see what it looks like then.

I think it would be good to remove extra arms and catch from the ropers. If you leave them P access, you could still us that to make TTMers if you want. Other than that, I like the idea of a roper with tentacles and stand firm, but just making him ST5 and without grab would be fine. Or maybe (!) keep as is and make them MA2.

A side note: ST5 in S means you'll be rolling a lot of 3die blocks against AV 5-7 stunties. Yes they'll skill. Once you beat 3 stunties, you will (be able to) have mighty blow.

If you give the linemen S access, remove dodge.

I do like how the night masks are better than the redcaps, but have AV6 instead of 7.


Last edited by the_Sage on Feb 21, 2012 - 09:43; edited 2 times in total
Olesh



Joined: Jun 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 09:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Just for your own reference, I'd like you to take a look at Gnoblars

0-16 Gnoblar 6 1 3 7 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty A GSP 30k

This is a basic ST1 lineman. Brownies, on the fairie team, have an identical stat-line if you're curious.

Let's look at your revised Red Caps:

0-16 Red Cap 6 1 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Titchy, Sneaky Git, S GAP, 30k

Whether stunty linemen should have any access besides A or AM is neither here nor there - your players have too many skills.

I'll repeat this again.

Your players have too many skills.

Go here: http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=help&op=races&div=3

Read the rosters. The majority of players only have Dodge, Stunty, and, if they're a positional, one other skill. (Ignoring Right Stuff: players have Right Stuff if there's a Big Guy on the team with Throw Team-Mate as part of team design)

"Big Guys that don't block well" isn't a team gimmick. It's not even supported by your team design. Between Tentacles and Grab, your proposed "Ropers" will throw more blocks than most team Big Guys, and their odds of the blocks being successful are the same - without Mighty Blow to start, they'll be less likely to actually break armor but this is more than made up for by the fact that they get to tie down multiple stunties who have very little chance to escape, even if it takes root.

Similarly, saying "stunties do all the blocking" isn't a gimmick, it's a consequence of the fact that most players in stunty leeg are stunties.

Here's a team gimmick for you: "A team based around having lots of secret weapons but no big guys" - Goblin Cheaters. Or how about "A team where everyone has throw teammate or bomb", for Horrors of Tzeench. You could have a team where the gimmick is "This team has a lot of shadowing" or "The Big Guys are the ball carriers".

You don't actually have a gimmick, which is hurting your design at least as much as the inordinately excessive number of skills you have on all your players.

Edit: Submit is not Preview
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 09:36 Reply with quote Back to top

hmm. I forget that titchy gives +1 dodge; I wanted the red caps to not have tackle zones (and yes I'm aware that doesn't affect stunties, but lots of teams have the rare guy who isn't stunty). I can't think of a simple way around that, so I'll drop titchy.
the argument about the roper ball carrier is a good one; I've dropped agi to 1.
I've dropped grab.
As a note on the Gargoyle: I'm pricing him as if he doesn't have take root, specifically because of bombardier, and I'm leaving him with A instead of S access specifically to avoid him becoming a blitzer. On the fluff side, gargoyles are quite nimble, when they are active; they just revert to stone on a semi-regular basis. These particular ones breathe balls of lightning and generally didn't actually hit things when they were with the wizard.
I actually hadn't realized brownies and gnoblars were 30k S1. Definitely have to revise that, and the Red Caps will just lose their skills.

current roper:

compare to treeman:
roper has +1 MA, catch, extra arms, P access
treeman has +2 AV, mighty blow, thick skull, no loner, no always hungry
(same number of skills, 2 more negatraits than treeman)

compare to BoN:
roper has +1S, catch, extra arms, throw teammate, no really stupid, P access
BoN has +1 MA, +1 AV, mighty blow, regeneration, (disturbing presence), foul appearance, no always hungry, no take root
(1 less skill, 1 more negatrait than BoN)

incidentally, I think comparing to Skyre Slaves, I'm now understanding why so many people are ranting about that team. Makes more sense, and the comments from this thread make more sense too coming from that point of view.


Last edited by Nelphine on Feb 21, 2012 - 10:04; edited 2 times in total
the_Sage



Joined: Jan 13, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 10:01 Reply with quote Back to top

To be fair the Roper's AV8 goes some way towards balancing them. Chainsaws and foulers will be able to get at them reasonably well. Also, no thick skull and no regen helps there.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 10:02 Reply with quote Back to top

he didn't have av8 before hand; after the comments, I thought it would make more sense, especially if I was dropping the gargoyle to 9.
MisterFurious



Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I was thinking that what you could do with this team is make it a really good road block team. A team that is really good at stopping other teams in their tracks. You've got four stand firm guys, two of which have tentacles. You've also got the 7 MV shadowers that people can put diving tackle on. That got me thinking that a good skill to put on the Red Caps instead of stab would be Diving Tackle. If that's too strong, then have them start with Side Step so everyone would take Diving Tackle as their first skill. This would make them a difficult team to get past and give them a decent theme.

I still don't like bombardier on the gargoyles, though as it makes Take Root pretty pointless. I love the idea of gargoyles turning to stone. Take Root is a pretty nasty negatrait and the gargoyles should get something good to balance it, but bombardier just makes so when they Take Root, they can just throw bombs all over the place. How about giving the gargoyles Grab? That way, when they get in someone's way and Take Root, they can still keep them next to the gargoyle.
WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 19:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I love the fluff of the team, great work on that. The team does seem quite strong on first glance, I think most of the balance issues have been covered by others. One small point, for the next update can you post the stat line as 3/5/2/8 for e.g., easier to read without MA, ST, etc.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2012 - 23:41 Reply with quote Back to top

MisterFurious, when I imagined the Gargoyles first, I specifically thought of Bombardier; and then when I was thinking about lore, Take Root was added in both for fluff and so that people wouldn't plan around them being the primary ball carriers (because that is what the stunties are for). As I mentioned previously, I would specifically ignore Take Root when considering the Gargoyle, and then think of that as something added on at the end. (For instance, normally take root is associated with S 6 monsters, and the only way to justify the awesome strength is with a super negatrait like take root or secret weapon; but in this case, I don't really have anything that needs a super negatrait, and it's only for fluff/overall team feel that take root is in at all. I think I could probably even justify (from a pure mechanical point of view, which I would not ever do), simply taking take root away from the gargoyles; but I won't do that.)
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