vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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 Posted:
Jan 22, 2005 - 00:19 |
 
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Every time my halflings played against dwarf teams, and my master chief cooked their rerolls to zero, the bearded ones were too reliable. I waited the whole match for the double skulls which didn't show up. |
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mstrchef13
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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Jan 22, 2005 - 00:58 |
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| vanGorn wrote: | | Every time my halflings played against dwarf teams, and my master chief cooked their rerolls to zero, the bearded ones were too reliable. I waited the whole match for the double skulls which didn't show up. |
That's because of a two long-accepted NUFFLE laws... your opponent always has better luck than you, and your opponent always has exactly enough rerolls as he needs. |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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Jan 22, 2005 - 02:46 |
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| SixFootDwarf wrote: | | IF the Vault should get implemented I'd seriously consider quitting the game. It's almost a totally different game under those rules. |
A totally different game, yet it solves lots of the problems that the game currently has.
Were still playing lrb rather than 3rd edition, which are radically different games. |
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Forum terrorist. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 22, 2005 - 11:59 |
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Vault has plenty of good stuff which I am looking forward to.
It also has a lot of stuff that makes me go "huh, wtf, what were these guys smoking?" but I guess I'll still enjoy the game with the new rules as well. |
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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WisdomLS
Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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Jan 27, 2005 - 00:28 |
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I'm the undead player that Xen7ric refered to in his earlier post and I would like to say for the record that I am definetly not Lucky  |
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thesquig
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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Jan 27, 2005 - 00:32 |
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WisdomLS bloodbowl players are never lucky... try asking one.  |
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Nuffle Sucks!!!
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Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 27, 2005 - 01:05 |
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Im a lucky. Ask Aequitas, I got luck pouring out my ass when I play him. When I play Kenty, I take it in the a##. |
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http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coachinfo&coach=768 |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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Jan 27, 2005 - 01:57 |
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Don't know what the "khemri own dwarves" guys have smoked, apart from Orcs, Dwarves was the only matchup I was scared of with TR 200+ Khemri. Dwarves >= all other races at high TR in a competitive league. And not many races are = in a prolonged season. |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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Jan 27, 2005 - 02:17 |
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4 Mummies + Possibly Ramtut, backed up by DP skellies is a pretty scary matchup for dwarfs.
Bit difficult to make a cage when your being smacked around and tied up by ST5 guarded up nasties.
Being fouled off the field is also quite a bad ending for any dwarf team. |
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Forum terrorist. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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Jan 27, 2005 - 02:51 |
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| inquisitorpustus wrote: | 4 Mummies + Possibly Ramtut, backed up by DP skellies is a pretty scary matchup for dwarfs.
Bit difficult to make a cage when your being smacked around and tied up by ST5 guarded up nasties.
Being fouled off the field is also quite a bad ending for any dwarf team. |
At higher TR levels a dwarfteam (featuring MB/GUARD on almost every single player) will easily vapourize those fragile skellies, and those mummies aren't particularly impressive against AV 9 anyhow.
It's much more likely the other way round, the dwarves will tie up the mummies with some random players while the remaining players will hunt the skellies.
The only team that will be smacked around is the khemri team itself, Ramtut or not, as the dwarf team will most likely have far more depth, skill and armour than those brittle bones.
Khemris aren't bad - but they should be owned by any decent orc or dwarf coach at a high TR. |
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Covertfun
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 27, 2005 - 04:59 |
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| Vero wrote: | uber, dwarves don't need more than six or seven Long Beards 
What's the talk about the highest armour? 4 guys with av8 which is crappy by all standards. |
I disagree... Armour 7 is crappy, whereas having four guys with Armour 8, two of whom you ALWAYS keep away from the melee is hardly a massive liability.
| Vero wrote: | | Orcs got only the two throwers with av8 and the rest with av9. |
I AGREE. what a shame orcs don't start with block and tackle and thick skull, then they'd be great! Then all they'd need is ST skill access on the linemen and 40 K rerolls.
To be fair, orcs are a good team, too! They are. Nobody's really trying to argue that orcs don't have good points - this thread is about Dwarves and how they are overpowered and boring to play against. Orcs have a slightly superior passing game in exchange for a not-as-good blocking game.
| Vero wrote: | | Don't know what maths give 2 > 4. Thick skull is joke too. Dwarves pay 10k per guy for that skill. That's 10-15 points of TR, which can only be used to keep a guy on pitch occasionally. I wouldn't call that a huge advantage. |
as long as we're being snooty about mathematics, let's take a look at Thick Skull, which you dismiss as a joke... [throughout this, i will be referring to a great summary of BB probabilities done by Ian "Double Skulls" Williams
now then, Thick Skull: we start by assuming that the player is knocked down. Once that has happened, the probabilities on the page come into play...
to get, say, a black orc, chaos warrior, or mummy off the pitch, you need a KO or a Cas. They are all Av9, just like the basic dwarven lineman. You will achieve this result (break of armour followed by 8+) 6.9% of the KNOCKDOWNS you get.
for a dwarf, half the KOs become stuns, thanks to that crappy waste of a trait, Thick Skull this gives us 4.8% of knockdowns removing a dwarf from the pitch.
Now, I won't patronise you - much - but you MUST see that with the 4.8-6.9 gap, a THIRD (and a bit, but I'll round down for politeness) of the blocks that would otherwise remove a player don't do anything.
in your defence, the armour break only happens on 16.7% of knockdowns, so it only comes in useful now and then, but then again, having a player on the pitch is often quite useful. 
most coaches invest 5 TR in an apothecary, and perhaps another 10 TR on having reserves (two cheap linemen from a cheap race). 1 TR per player to give them an extra chance to stay on the pitch seems worth it to me!
| Vero wrote: |
They do got guard all around. How scary. Orcs do got guard on eight players (counting doubles even more) and str4 on four of them. Chaos got even more guard and the stronger players. They are more agile than Orcs or Chaos too: Total four guys with ag3 and mv more than four. That's going to get all those orcs even more green. |
again, if only Chaos were given Block and Tackle and Thick skull and Armour 9, they'd tear you up good! as it is, they don't get guard first skill like dwarves can. They want block first, usually. Maybe if they wanted to be like dwarves, they'd get Spikes, followed by Thick Skull, then block, then tackle, THEN guard. Of course, a beastman with FIVE skills (two of them doubles) is something a lot of Chaos coaches would buy for 70K, even if it had -2 MA and -AG.
| Vero wrote: |
What's left: Early development which peaks by TR200, the best linos - which are truly blockers - in the game and the cheapest rerolls for those 4+ dodges. A great and overpowered team maybe on Earth, not on Old World at least. |
Dwarves are overpowered! LA dee dah dee DAH!
(I'm going slightly mad! why write a long, informative, researched post, when the people you are posting against either agree with you or have Thick Skull??) 
Dwarves are too good, and even when they appear beatable, that doesn't excuse the utter frustrating boredom of playing against them.
they would be balanced if all dwarf players started with niggling injuries to represent their notorious drunkenness. Then at least, some of their rolls would not be on two dice! |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Jan 27, 2005 - 05:35 |
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I have to agree with you covertfun. Especially with the point about the lino's starting with so many skills - this is the thing that really makes dwarf teams so powerful -- the have the most essential skills (for a lineman) to start with, and have strength access so they can have guard as their first skill.
On the other hand, their movement and agility are pretty low, which is what makes them so cheap (yer .. i know, 70k isn't that cheap .. but you do get 3 good skills).
I think that the easiest way to balance them (a bit), however, would be to increase the cost of re-rolls. This would have the effect of increasing the TR and TS for dwarf teams. They will still have no trouble with cash ... it will just mean that they end up having a higher rating, and hence are on a 'more equal' footing with other teams. imo 70k for re-rolls would probably be about right. |
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Uncle_Smed
Joined: May 22, 2004
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Jan 27, 2005 - 08:52 |
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Hmmm... Covertfun... he's a trouble maker and no mistake.
Dwarves are initially overpowered. I know having taken out a 10 round TT season with two finals and only dropping my round 9 game. They came in with the fewest TDs against them for the season, and thanks to a bit of luck, had the highest casualty count for and lowest against.
Come second season and they were back as defending champs. This time around the Skaven beat them, the High Elves beat them and I believe a pack of Humans beat them. Why? A bit of bad play, but more that the coaches learned from the first season and were better prepared.
Same league, first season again.. my Woodies (yes, a 2 team per coach TT league! Don't cheer too fast, you don't play yourself) got knobbed in the first four games of season, but once they had some foundations set they took out every game for the rest of season. Season two.. same Woodies, bit more skill.. they ended up pipping the dwarves out on Season points by a win and went into the finals.
Which is the more survivable team? The dwarves by a mile.
Which is the better team? The woodies.. no doubts. (Season 2 semi's they dropped the other finalist's Undead to three on the pitch in the opening drive)
Why? More skill sets to choose from really. Players ending up with blodge (What dwarven coach in his right mind will waste a perfectly good double on dodge? Rather have Dauntless, SF or even Side Step now I think about it.. Frenzy's ok too), AG 4 on everyone.. except that one Wardancer with + AG who can't seem to roll any skill rolls but doubles..
Oh yeah, and we're not playing with ageing.. because it smells.. and while it pegs back bashy teams which don't normally take CASes, it pegs back the teams which DO take them that little bit more. Often removing critical TD scoring players..
Why cry about dwarves when they're just a natural mechanism for player turnover? *ceases the Ageing rant/hijack here*
Dorfs are slow.. and not very agile, agile enough to play the ball, but not to pull off long bombs on a 4+ with a reroll from Pass (3+ if you get Strong Arm on your spooty lil Elf).
The great equalizer... DP. Most elven teams should be able to knock down one bashy guy by dodging for assists/blitzing... once down, garnish with elves and apply a liberal dose of dirty player. You break armour, and with DP, nearly half the time they leave the pitch for good. First time you do that it's a 1 in 6 that you leave as well... after that, you have similar chances to the player on the ground.
Still, set it up right, and you're happy. All they get next turn is a blitz and if you can manage it, most of their team is out of position to commit a return foul action of equal devestation.
Rerolls... 40k... And? Elves have 50k rerolls across the Elven board.. and need them less with AG 4. (5 is RIGHT OUT!)
Humans and Skaven have 50k rerolls.. really, the only people who should be complaining about reroll cost on dwarves are the poor buggers with 70k rerolls.. and theirs cost that much for a good reason.
I don't play dwarves on Fumbbl, either as or against as a general rule. But then my ranked career is a sordid mess. And i hate stunty.. so for the reason of making them go squish, YAY DWARVES!
Ahhhh that's enough out of me. |
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