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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 04:04 Reply with quote Back to top

When I make a roster I believe it's vital you try to portray the archetype as closely as possible. Ok, you don't get the interesting skill combos, however that's the path to losing racial identity.

So, the 2 most important aspects to making a Bret roster are:

1. They are basic humans at heart, which (if any players are allowed to be different)
2. The basic feel of Bretonnia are fabulous knights and lowly poor peasantry.

With that in mind, and the old 4th ed roster, I went for:

0-16 Peasants 6 3 3 7 G/SAP (too low to have a skill or afford proper armour).
0-2 Squires 7 3 3 7 Sure hands GP/SA (Again he's not given proper armour however with training this helps him with his speed. He also has had some basic throweresque training).
0-4 Knights of the Realm 7 3 3 8 SG/PA (All basic knights of the old world are the equivalent to a blitzer).
0-2 Questing Knight 4 4 3 9 Stand firm, block, dauntless (This positional you have some freedom to more. Dauntless and Standfirm because they are fearless. MA 4 due to the huge amount of cumbersome armour).
buuface



Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 05:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I wish Christer would release some of the rosters he and Garion feel sure are complete for use in leagues. Waiting for every single new team to be balanced and fine-tuned in private before releasing them all together seems like it could take forever.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 07:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I doubt they are waiting for everyone to be perfectly balanced as it is impossible to be sure without testing from large amounts of players. More likely they are just timing it to match with when he has programmed in various league custom adjustments. And hopefully Kryten's new client!

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 15:40 Reply with quote Back to top

buuface like many, you are misunderstanding the situation. Last time I spoke to Christer; it has never been his intention to release any of these teams. This is not his objective.

He feels adding rosters to the site, and then working out where to put them and adding imagery is far too time intensive for him. Instead, his long term plan if it's feasible is to make League fully custom. Therefore allowing league admins to add teams/players they wish. Secret League is a resource of teams that could be used if the commissioners so wish.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 15:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Harvestmouse,
reading through your description at the top of the page, I'm kind of surprised that you dislike the roster so much.
I certainly agree with most of your thoughts, even if I ended up with some different statlines.

Never mind, I suppose.
Cheers
Martin

(Oh, but I'm glad you like the Tilea team. We're not completely polar opposites then).
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 16:12 Reply with quote Back to top

The tilea team is a brilliant representation of the fluff where as the Bret one isn't close, though I don't mind the fend peasants which I know harvestmouse has issues with.

Your latest Bret roster is even worse though . Removing S access from the knights is as stupid as bloodletters having A access, probably worse tbh. I like your dedication to making a good bretonnian roster but I honestly think you need to take a step back and look through all bretonnian fluff again including how they were represented in blood bowl in 4th ed which is pretty important.

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Madmin



Joined: May 04, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 16:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Considering how good this place already is compared to the alternative, and given the targets Christer already has that need work, I'd say it's a bit much to pile on pressure for new rosters. Apes of wrath have had some [L] testing which I liked, as I think the approved apes roster really got a good mix of balance, racial identity and fun skills, nothing about them felt bland or out of place to me with them.

I'm sort of split by the two proposed rosters (from the secret league and Harvestmouse's) because I don't think there's any room for a middle ground of the two. If it was just introduced on it's own, I would lean towards Plasmoid's side, because they offer more variety and I kinda like the AG2 limitation on peasants for reasons I've stated before.

It clearly looks like case of opposite approach: the "tweaked humans" on Harvestmouse's side put authenticity first, making sure at all times they play as a Brettonian team "should" feel,with less focus on them having a niche skill set or playing style. Plasmoid's "fend, wrestle 'n' run" is more tailored to looking at how the team should play functionally rather than being strictly true to fluff at all times. They have clear differences from other rosters which set them apart and give them new playstyles not available to other teams.

And the Tilea team? I said something to Garion a while back, but me and a few friends always thought it played better with a stricter roster much like pact's rather than just a budget to buy whichever good aligned players, but i love the idea.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 16:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I've moved this into House Rules, which seems more appropriate than General Chat.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 16:42 Reply with quote Back to top

eg. one of the most important things when designing bretonnian should be that they had star players in the official rules -

Guilarme, Brettonian Squire, 6 2 5 7, Loner, Dodge, Catch, Sprint, Sure Feet, Side Step
Jules De Bergerac, Brettonian Grail Knight, 7 5 3 9 Loner, Block, Stand Firm, Strip Ball, Leader, Pro, Mighty Blow
Willem Tollet Squire Thrower 6 3 3 7 Loner, Pass, Sure Hands, Nerves of Steel, Accurate

So Bretonnians Have to have Grail Knights and squires in their roster at a minimum or you have not been faithful to the source material. Looking at their stats and skills Harvesmouse's is a lot closer to the source material. The Squire thrower has clearly come from the Squire. obtaining Pass, NoS and Accurate. The Knight has come from Knights of the Realm gaining +2st, +1Av Stand Firm, Strip Ball, Leader, Pro, Mighty Blow. While Plasmoids roster may be fun, he could make it fit elsewhere with another race rather than shoehorning it in with Bretonnia. Though I think his peasants are interesting. I'm not sure they need Fend though or that it fits, 6327 would be fine.

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Sausten



Joined: Aug 08, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 17:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
eg. I'm not sure they need Fend though or that it fits, 6327 would be fine.


I found fend a little difficult to understand also. They are portrayed as withered, down-trodden serfs mostly suffering from malnutrition, rickets or some other ailment. Yet somehow they have the strength to hold anything off from following up?

I like harvestmouse's roster in that it seems more balanced and doesn't force you to play a running team. Plasmoid's is interesting but your solely relying on lots of doubles to attain skills that would enable you to air the ball out.

In my opinion being a knight was all about martial prowess so they should be more geared to fighting than scoring.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 18:00 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
Hi Harvestmouse,
reading through your description at the top of the page, I'm kind of surprised that you dislike the roster so much.
I certainly agree with most of your thoughts, even if I ended up with some different statlines.

Never mind, I suppose.
Cheers
Martin

(Oh, but I'm glad you like the Tilea team. We're not completely polar opposites then).


Hey Plasmoid,

To clear things up, I don't have any issues with you. I appreciate the work you put in, and I like your inventiveness. I also find your rule pack very interesting.

We've spoken about the Bretonnian roster before. I know you've explained your reasoning behind the fend linos. However it's hard to understand and explain my reasoning of why it is a problem. There's no argument here, or locking of horns; just one guy that likes black and another white.

I think madmin hit the nail on the head. Your philosophy is that 'Any new roster, should bring something new' (I'm paraphrasing there).

My philosophy is that any new roster should stay within the descriptions that already exist, unless there is very good reason to deviate (a new race or massively different positional) for example.

Personally I want to go down the road of teams (rather than races) like Pact and Underworld. Many of the teams being subtly different from each other and bringing very little (if anything new).

The Tilean roster idea is brilliant, I love it. Having you around is a benefit, even for me. However your skill choices again are not my cup of tea.

Anyway we'll all keep on doing on things, and creating diversity and hopefully a better place for our hobby.
Sausten



Joined: Aug 08, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2014 - 18:54 Reply with quote Back to top

What have I started? Razz It is rather easy to fit a bretonnian team into the human rules, knights are blitzers, squires/yeomen are your throwers and catchers and linemen are the peasants. Although AV8 doesn't seem quite right on the peasants.
jamesfarrell129



Joined: Dec 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2014 - 10:37 Reply with quote Back to top

My main issue* with the bretonnian roster, apart from the obvious "why not just use the existing human one", is this: peasants are supposed to be utter drivel, so why do they start with a skill? OK, so its not a great one, but these are linemen, give them block/wrestle and suddenly they are reasonable players.

* I may not have read much of this thread, or had more than a cursory glance over the roster recently...

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Roland



Joined: May 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2014 - 12:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Guilarme, Brettonian Squire, 6 2 5 7, Loner, Dodge, Catch, Sprint, Sure Feet, Side Step
Jules De Bergerac, Brettonian Grail Knight, 7 5 3 9 Loner, Block, Stand Firm, Strip Ball, Leader, Pro, Mighty Blow
Willem Tollet Squire Thrower 6 3 3 7 Loner, Pass, Sure Hands, Nerves of Steel, Accurate


there are more!
https://fumbbl.com/help:ForgottenStarPlayers

Joshua Le Grand, Peasant, Brettonian, 240,000 (140,000), 7 5 3 8, Loner, Block, Stand Firm, Break Tackle, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Multiple Block, Secret Weapon (staff)
Robin La Sange, Squire Catcher, Brettonian, 110,000, 8 2 4 7, Loner, Catch, Dodge, Sure Feet, Sprint
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 27, 2014 - 12:35 Reply with quote Back to top

ah yeah forgot about them, cant say I agree with the St5 peasant with magic staff mind.

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