Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Jan 06, 2015 - 12:08 |
 
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Nonono, y u no NoS on pro catchers, it's why i play pelves.
I like the idea of changing HE a little so they become different, no buff, just different |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Jan 22, 2015 - 10:45 |
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| ahalfling wrote: | | If HEs do one thing well it's passing. |
I actually think what HEs do well is stand up to attrition. Both PE and WE have better "passing" teams. 6MA doesn't cover a lot of ground, and often means rolling an extra GFI that the WE thrower doesn't have to make. Having more armor is nice, but throwers skill extremely quickly and don't need a lot of skills, so replacing them is really no big deal.
| RedDevilCG wrote: | | Leader is interesting. Would that also be a bit fluffy? |
I think the reason no player starts with leader is the simple fact that there are some pretty steep diminishing returns on multiple leader players. If we're trying to encourage more positional use, leader probably isn't the way to go.
| Garion wrote: | | erm why do they need a buff again? |
HE only need a buff if you want to bring them into the top tier with Orcs, Skaven, WE, etc. They are hardly crippled, but given their similarity to DE, it's hard not to make the easy comparisons and find HE a bit lacking.
2 Blitzers and 2 Witch Elves are significantly better than a Thrower and 3 Catchers. The DE option comes with 4 core skills (2 block, 2 dodge) and 4 supporting skills (2 Jump Up, 2 Frenzy). The high elves have access to MA8, but more AV7 players and a MA6 thrower. The skill gap isn't close. 5 supporting skills (3xcatch, Safe Throw, Pass) just can't measure up. I would argue that Block, Dodge, Jump Up, and Frenzy are all better skills than Catch, Safe Throw, or Pass.
The only similar comparison I can think of is Necro vs Undead. Two very similar rosters, but I think the Werewolf/Flesh Golem vs 2 Mummies and 2 Ghouls discussion is a heck of a lot closer. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Jan 22, 2015 - 11:37 |
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While I was thinking about High Elves, I dreamed up a couple of other options to modify the roster.
Option 1 - Remove Blitzers, Start 0-4 catchers with Dodge
8/3/4/7 Catch, Dodge is an amazing chassis. All manner of poor-man's-wardancer variants would be possible. This would be a very powerful team with a lot of options for player development.
Option 2 - Start Blitzers with Stand Firm
Currently, High Elves get a bit shafted in the blitzer department. They get neither the quantity of dark elves or the quality of Pro or Wood Elves. While similar to the Pro Elf version, it's a unique player that would distance them farther from the DE roster. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jan 25, 2015 - 16:50 |
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I like the catch-dodge proposal. Dodge is a skill which every elven team needs, but it is a skill which is very synergistic with the passing game. So it is a great all around fit. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jan 25, 2015 - 22:12 |
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The survivability of Helfs would greatly improve with dodge on catchers. It might actually be too high. |
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tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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Jan 25, 2015 - 22:19 |
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It would be absolutely too high.
Giving sure hands (dropping safe throw) or +ma to throwers would be right path. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jan 25, 2015 - 23:05 |
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High elves Certainly do not need dodge on their catchers that would make them hella OP. +Av to catcher would be fine mind and would make the team pretty unique without detracting from their jack of all trades'ness'. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Jan 25, 2015 - 23:10 |
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Do you mean overpowered if there is no Blitzer? The proposal was to:
- eliminate blitzers
- add dodge to catchers |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jan 25, 2015 - 23:24 |
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It'd be interesting to see if people could stomach starting them out to get 4 blodge toot suite. Four MA 8 blodge at ~1080TV? Intriguing. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jan 25, 2015 - 23:31 |
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| bghandras wrote: | Do you mean overpowered if there is no Blitzer? The proposal was to:
- eliminate blitzers
- add dodge to catchers |
Yeah that might work but I would prefer playing with their current roster than that one, removing a positional makes them a bit dull. |
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DrPoods
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
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Jan 26, 2015 - 00:45 |
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| Garion wrote: | | High elves Certainly do not need dodge on their catchers that would make them hella OP. +Av to catcher would be fine mind and would make the team pretty unique without detracting from their jack of all trades'ness'. |
+AV on the catchers would create a kinda "Sea Elves" vibe and make them a bit different. I like it. |
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ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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Jan 26, 2015 - 01:01 |
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I mean, let's go back to Warhammer high elves and how they fit in in the elf ecosystem.
Dark elves? Stabbing and harpies and major losses on both sides. Leather armor with chainmail bits, black metal spikes on things. In Blood Bowl terms, the manual talks about dark elves playing the running game out of sheer spite. Extra blood. Dark elves love blood. And the roster for the most part reflects this, with the witch elves frenzying on guys and the assassin (which should be either AV8 or 80k, but I still think he's underrated.)
The Blood Bowl roster suits the flavor, albeit maybe a bit overpowered. 10 potential positionals seems like a lot, especially because they're not specialists so much as they're strictly better. Humans get positionals but the catcher can't hit, orcs get positionals but the black orcs don't do much of the line. Dark elf positionals, particularly the blitzers and witches, are just all-around better than the linemen, for the most part... they don't reward fitting a player to a role, any of them can do it all. The witch elf is a little overdescribed, maybe? But witch elves are fun. When dark elves are frustrating, it's about the endless parade of blitzers, who have a solidity that seems un-Dark-elfy. I'd go 0-2 on the blitzers, to be honest, if I was rebuilding the roster. Maybe 0-4 on one of the other ones? Might be fun, because it's not clear everyone would want 4 of any of the others. Everyone wants 4 blitzers.
Wood elves, then? Wood elves are about no armor and backflips and emerging from forests to hit you with two swords. Lots of archery, which would suggest that THEY'RE the ones who should force you to pass, more so than HEs or pro elves. In practice, they're mostly about wardancers, and that's okay. One of my WHFB armies was wood elves, and they do feel the same way... they're usually outnumbered, they can get hit hard if you don't protect them, but when things are running right, the trickery lets them strike before the opponent knows what's happening.
Which is inherently a bit problematic as a game concept, in terms of not being all that interactive, but I think that's what you've got. I think that's the source of a lot of the frustration with wood elves, but I don't see an easy fix aside from de-powering the wardancers, and then why does anyone play the team?
Which brings us to high elves and pro elves. Pro elves ought to feel super-generic... you've got these random cast-off elves, they're cheap, but you need to skill them up. And the kind of cardboardy linemen/throwers do that. But the blitzers and catchers are MORE flavor-heavy than their HE counterparts. I'd almost give pro elves the one-skill guys that high elves currently have, like "here, these guys barely meet the minimum requirements to be elves, but you have the TV overhead to make them what you want."
So, now, high elves. Warhammer High Elves are about ranks upon ranks of spearmen in long mail coats, ultra-tight formations of diligently trained military units, heavy armor and horse barding and tall white castles on mountaintops. The ultra-clean-shaven Camelot image (but with elves.) But the roster doesn't feel that way, not the way dark elves and wood elves feel specific. I mean, part of it is how clean can you get? This is Blood Bowl. But part of it is the lack of any design decisions on the players. The roster doesn't compel me to play them in any way beyond "eh, they're elves, probably pass it?"
Part of me wants to say someone should have AV9. But the Empire is known for its heavy armor too, to say nothing of Bretonnia, and nobody gives a human blitzer AV9. Also, elves are expensive already, if you start piling armor on them they'll just get overpriced. AV8 on the catchers is nice, but it doesn't make me want to play them. (Oh, I get underskilled guys AND I have to pay for a bunch of armor?)
Personally, I'd go 0-4 on the blitzers, or (second choice) give them S access. (Both seems like too much, unless you were to cut the team elsewhere.) High elves are the sturdiest and squarest of all the elves, the elves who line up and grit their teeth instead of leaping or sneaking. A solid line of blitzers seems WAY more like them than it does like the dark elves, and this distinguishes them from the pro elves in a positive way. (Yes, armor's also positive, but it's armor. Eh.)
Making high elves the "blitzer elves" gives them an identity, especially if you remove the option from the DEs. And yes, if you build up a team you can give them an identity yourself. But while I understand the idea of a versatile roster, I do feel like teams should point a little more clearly in a direction out of the box. Right now, there's less character and uniqueness in high elves than there is in pro elves -- or in humans, and humans are designed to be THE blank slate. |
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Beat Claw, Play AV7
(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.) |
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DrPoods
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
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Jan 26, 2015 - 01:59 |
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Imteresting thought. They do fit the stand and fight stereotype. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Jan 26, 2015 - 02:17 |
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For HE, one way might be to go 0-4 Blitzers, MV7 Thrower, and take away Agility access from Linemen.
Dark Elves you might go 0-2 Blitzers, MV7 Assassins, and no A access for Linos. 4 blitzer types (2x Blitzer, 2x Witch) is probably enough to carry the team, and is more balanced long-term. Makes low TV slightly more challenging but takes away their mid- to high-TV dominance. |
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NerdBird
Joined: Apr 08, 2014
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Jan 26, 2015 - 03:30 |
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High Elves will not get a fix. Not enough people care.
The High Elf catchers take too long to build for one of your key players. In one game you can take a really competitive High Elf roster and make it completely null and void by wiping out a few players. They don't recover fast enough to rebuild them. I would rather have just about any other teams thrower in the game because of the cost of a high elf thrower. A human or orc thrower has better odds of picking it up than a high elf thrower....come on.
Once I take sure hands I have a 110K sink for what? A crappy ass pick up guy. pfft.
High Elves should get their blitzer slot opened up to 0-4 and leave the rest alone.... This way I could have 4 decent support guys WHEN, not IF, my catchers die. I don't know if there is any other team that suffers such a fall off when they lose a few players. High Elves also suffer greatly below 140 TV because of their no skill players.
High Elves are my favorite team, bar none. But outside of a Table Top league I wouldnt play them because they are garbage. |
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