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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 13:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Wanted to have a little group think on Loner and Big Guys in Stunty Leeg. There is currently a mix of Loner and no-Loner BGs. I think there should be more BGs without Loner. My reasoning is that in Stunty Leeg, the BGs are by far the most dominant players on the teams and tend to boss around the little punks. They are the stars, versus in other BB, just hired meat shields for humans, etc.

Here is how it breaks down, and what I am thinking. Feel free to agree with me or stay out of the thread. Wink

Chaos Halfling - 2 Loner, WA Chaos Spawn
- I think they are just fine as is. Chaos Spawn are crazed monsters and CFlings are already damn good. With WA, failing it is not as bad as BH or RS, so less need for a RR.

Horrors of Tzeentch - 2 Loner, WA Firewyrm
- I am on the fence with this. WA + Loner on the bombing is really tough. I could see removing the Loner to make them a bit more effective.

Nurglings - 2 Loner, RS Beasts
- I am thinking this is just fine. They are tough enough starting with tents.

Gnoblar - 2 Loner, 1 w BH, 1 with WA. (third with BH, but no Loner)
- I am tempted to remove Loner from the Irongut as well, leaving it on the psychopath Gorger. The two main Ogres should run this team of subservient Gnobs.

Pygmy - 2 Loner, BH Krox
- These Krox were bred and raised by the Pygmies by the fluff. Also following the fluff, the Pygmies commune with nature and their animal spirits. I think being "close" with the Krox would mean no Loner. I think it would make the team just more competitive enough.

Snotling - 3 Loner, RS Trolls
- Let's face it, Snots are pretty darn weak. I think no Loner, but still 3xRS, would be a good change for Snots. They could become even more fun and half decent.

Strigoyan & Flings, just fine with no-Loner BGs.


Long story short, I am looking to have the BGs do more hitting and squishing, and less standing about. More mayhem I say!

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gjopie



Joined: Oct 27, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I think all of your reasoning sounds spot on. Good idea!

The only possible controversial point in my mind is the Firewyrms. They are pretty powerful already (and I love them). However, removing Loner would make me use them for bombing more often, rather than blitzing, so maybe that's a good thing.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 14:08
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I was thinking about this after you first mentioned it. I wouldn't be opposed to removing Loner on all big guys in Stunty. They all have some other negatrait anyway.

One things also, fitting with the fluff I think it might be worth removing Bone Head from the Gnoblar Manteater. I'm playing Gnoblars at the moment, so that's why they get my comment Smile In The Ogre Kingdoms book the Manteaters are the super cool kick-ass ogres better than all their peers. The Manteater on the Gnoblar team is pretty much just a standard Ogre.
In my 2 games so far (in the EC) I've lost 2 ogres by turn 2, then second game lost one on turn 3. The team really falls apart without them. As they are the focal point, having a non-negatrait guy would be interesting.

Edit: Also worth saying that I support this idea whatever changes you make. More reliable mayhem would be excellent! Will you be performing a review on any/all teams at some point soon? I have many thoughts, but do not want to spam this discussion Razz
m0gw41



Joined: Jun 12, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 14:24 Reply with quote Back to top

My two cents:

Chaos Halfling - 2 Loner, WA Chaos Spawn
- Agree, keep the loner or they would be even more OP.

Horrors of Tzeentch - 2 Loner, WA Firewyrm
- I am also undecided, they are a bit crap at the start but removing loner could really make them terror bombers/clawpomb nightmares. I am always afraid of them rolling 1s, so I don't always try the bomb, at least not until the turn end but without that fear I'd be trying to throw bombs with them early every time. May need to think of nerfing the bombing somehow if they look like dominating.

Nurglings - 2 Loner, RS Beasts
- Agree to keep the loner, nurgs are good anyway without reliable beasts smashing everyone up.

Gnoblar - 2 Loner, 1 w BH, 1 with WA. (third with BH, but no Loner)
- I think taking away the loner on the Irongut would help and not make them too OP, just keep the pyscho in check.

Pygmy - 2 Loner, BH Krox
- Krox are already very good big guys and pygmy are decent when played properly, reliably being able to get a tail to places and/or 3d blitzing with MA6 seems a bit too good.

Snotling - 3 Loner, RS Trolls
- I would like to see this but increase their price to reflect this. I think we have to be careful with snots though: they can already decimate teams so if they look like going OP then maybe consider dropping to two non-loner trolls only or maybe giving them loner again but swapping one out for a non-loner ogre or other BG.

Strigoyan & Flings, just fine with no-Loner BGs.
Albion Fae too also fine without the loner fens.


Last edited by m0gw41 on Mar 03, 2015 - 14:32; edited 1 time in total
Subs



Joined: Jun 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 14:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello!
I am quite agree with you for Gnobblars and Horrorz but not for the pygmies, which i found already very powerfull with loner Krox because of the average potential they have in all the game sectors with good positionals... But perhaps you will not be agree with that.

Edit:m0gw41 say it better and i think he's right too for Horrors, sucking at start but could become true nightmares at highter level.
xnoelx



Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 14:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with most of this. I don't think Pygmies need Loner removing. They're already a good team. But I'm not hugely against it, as long as we're OK with them being a top tier sort of team.

However: I'm a huge fan of Horrors, but I'm also on the fence there. Currently (meaning since P access was removed from them) you don't see a lot of Firewyrms built as bombers, and a few more are used for bombing, but not built specifically for it. The most common build I see is the Tents/MB/blitzer sort of build.

I think removing Loner helps them with bombing, but also helps them when used as AG4 blitzing Tents-monsters. I would prefer either changing WA to BH, or (my favourite) reinstating P access for them. They then still have a 4+ to bomb, but when they do bomb it will be more effective. And the krypto-Spawn build with Tents doesn't get any advantage from it.

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Subs



Joined: Jun 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 14:48 Reply with quote Back to top

"I think removing Loner helps them with bombing, but also helps them when used as AG4 blitzing Tents-monsters. I would prefer either changing WA to BH, or (my favourite) reinstating P access for them. They then still have a 4+ to bomb, but when they do bomb it will be more effective. And the krypto-Spawn build with Tents doesn't get any advantage from it." xnoelx

Totally agree with that! It is cool that english people explain in better english what i try to say badly Smile
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 16:46
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Loner is just a non-fun balancing thing. In a superfunwickedcool place like the Leeg does it really need to be there? I think there's real merit in the idea of removing it wholesale, and then just using minor re-balances to address any players that become particularly strong from it.

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree on the Irongut (he should also get TTM). Wyrms should stay with Loner as two more reliable bombers would make Horrors OP. The rest should stay as they are as removing it would make teams without true big guys suffer by comparison.

Somebody has to be the bottom of the ladder, and its Snotlings. They're the team for the coach that needs a challenge. Besides, they can lay a world of hurt on a team fast just as they are.

Most Bigs SHOULD have Loner unless their team-balance requires it's removal (Gnobs, Fae and PFLings for example).

Pygs, Nurgs, PFlings and Horrors are just fine as they are.

Hell, I think Doomwheels should get BH and (perhaps) up their SW roll to 7+. Leave them on the pitch more but make them more unreliable. Oh, and take away Agility access. Jump up Doomwheels are a serious peeve of mine.

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WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 19:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Question. Why is everyone saying Wyrms would be reliable bombers with no Loner? They need to pass a 4+ WA roll.

@mister__joshua: I like the way you think! Loner was a poorly implemented band-aid. Could have been much better done.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 19:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes I also think Whatball's proposal looks good other than Firewyrms. Horrors can unleash terrible storms of bombs, and this means they do it even more reliably.

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 19:15 Reply with quote Back to top

@WhatBall: Not 'reliable', more reliable. I played a match vs. CnB recently where the Wyrms consistently rolled 4+ for all kinds of actions and I just tore him a new one.

Actually, I could see making Wyrms BH but 0-1.

I don't think of Loner as 'non-fun', I think of it as high risk for high reward. Honestly the bashiness of Stunty seems just fine right where it is.

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m0gw41



Joined: Jun 12, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 19:18 Reply with quote Back to top

WhatBall wrote:
Question. Why is everyone saying Wyrms would be reliable bombers with no Loner? They need to pass a 4+ WA roll.


Reliable as in "not turn ending". If they fail the WA on a bomb then the turn isn't over, they stay as they are ready to try again next time. It's that rolling of the inevitable 1 that makes their bombs most unreliable and makes a coach have to think about when the best time to use them is. With no loner, as long as you keep a rr behind, the threat of turn ending (assuming you don't throw a bomb at your own guys) is pretty minimal and the reward high.

Loner on Big Guys:
I really don't think we should blanket remove loner, stunty should be about the stunties, not hordes of semi-reliable big guys running amuck, picking up balls with ag2 etc. I also think the decision making process about when and how to use loner big guys or not is one of the things that separates good stunty coaches from the not so good ones.
ahalfling



Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 19:22 Reply with quote Back to top

The only one I feel strongly about is the Firewyrm -- I think it's important he can't throw half the time, and can't reroll fumbles when he does. Otherwise, an AG4 bomber woul just be too strong.

I don't feel the pygmies need a boost, but I will humbly accept if offered.

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Lorebass



Joined: Jun 25, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2015 - 19:44
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Well I'll re-iterate what I figured from a while ago spec chat:::

Chaos Halfling - 2 Loner, WA Chaos Spawn
- Yeah, leave it. with wild animal they can still hang out.

Horrors of Tzeentch - 2 Loner, WA Firewyrm
- I might suggest giving them Pro then as well? That would increase their chances of actually doing things if even by a little. They are fairly good to start.

Nurglings - 2 Loner, RS Beasts
- Agree to leave them alone.

Gnoblar - 2 Loner, 1 w BH, 1 with WA. (third with BH, but no Loner)
- Agree with WB, leave the loner on the wierd one only.

Pygmy - 2 Loner, BH Krox
- Krox are good, pygmies are not so much. This is where I would suggest adding pro. Fluff is this: A krox raised by pygmies still maintains its feral loner-ness but through the training they can occasionally be called on to do the pygmie's bidding.(Pro)

Snotling - 3 Loner, RS Trolls
- I would actually leave the loners, the snots don;t plan well and just bought the cheapest big guys on the market to play. Maybe make the weapons harder to send off or give snot teams a free bribe for every game!(ref pities them)

Strigoyan & Flings - Are fine

my 12 cents.

----EDIT----
WhatBall wrote:

@mister__joshua: I like the way you think! Loner was a poorly implemented band-aid. Could have been much better done.


But they we'd have to call it "Big 'un League (with lil' guyz")


Last edited by Lorebass on Mar 03, 2015 - 20:29; edited 3 times in total
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