pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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 Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 23:00 |
 
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| Wreckage wrote: | DC is a quite useful skill. It has ample amounts of uses with slann. I'd not really recommend paying for it tho.
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W T H?
this is yr definition of "quite useful"? |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 23:06 |
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By Wreckage's own words:
| Quote: | There is great hidden potential with this one. But in the end it impacts on a rather unimportant
mechanic and you don't even get to re-roll it. It has been improved giving +1 on accurate catches
but generally that is rarely relevant, especially on an ag4.
Obviously it doesn't improve protection.
Diving Catch helps on Kick-Off catches. It can be abused to catch a ball from the opposite half if
placed on the front-line and the ball lands next to the player. It's not really worth waiting for that but
a worthwhile option on Perfect Defense and a lucky ball landing. Obviously that is a 1 in 1000
games situation.
A more common exploit is on a Blitz-Event. Contrary to everyone else you don't have to get into the
square where the ball lands but can stand in a square next to it to improve your position. That means
you can catch the ball even if you are one square slower. But even if the distance is no problem for
you, there is little point to stand in the ball spot. Simply pick the best position for you, then provide
cover. The ball then proceeds to scatter from the square you were standing in. Since a kick-off is
never accurate that won't effect your roll either.
When in a tackle-zone, or if an ag3 player, you may find that it is probability wise better to pass
than to hand off. However, the benefit is only marginal and you have to watch out for pass
impacting skills on the opposing team. For HMP&DC see Hail-Mary-Pass. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 23:08 |
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| El_Jairo wrote: | And on Diving Tackle:
| Quote: | Diving Catch (Agility)
The player is superb at diving to catch balls others cannot reach and jumping to more easily catch perfect passes. The player may add 1 to any catch roll from an accurate pass targeted to his square. In addition, the player can attempt to catch any pass, kick off or crowd throw-in, but not bouncing ball, that would land in an empty square in one of his tackle zones as if it had landed in his own square without leaving his current square. A failed catch will bounce from the Diving Catch player's square. |
So it clearly states it works on a Kick Off.
On the other hand you can't get rid of enemy tackle zones as you catch from your own square. |
Not to re-open the debate, but seems to me if a DC catches the kickoff from their own half, and the ball is treated as if it landed in the DC player's square, technically it's a touchback, and that NAF has it right. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 23:18 |
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| pythrr wrote: | | this is yr definition of "quite useful"? |
I guess so, as I'm not even really sure what choice of words you'd suggest. Do you think it's rather 'amazingly useful' by my definition. Or rather 'irrelevant' by my definition?
@Mrt, completely forgot that I wrote that already...
@fidius, may that be as it is, but it did not bounce or scatter there, it landed there at best. |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 23:29 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | Does anybody think DC would be more useful and taken more often IF it gave you the 1 square of extra movement option I mentioned in the OP? A way to potentially free up a Catcher from a TZ or to help get him closer to the End Zone. It could be a nice buff to the Passing Game that is under-utilized under the current rules. |
That does sound like something worthwhile.
You might pass that idea to Plasmoid for NTT BB rules 2016 for play-testing.
But until then I don't see how DC give a player +1 to catch, other than throwing the ball willingly a square of your DC catcher. I think this is a huge boost to QP as it can travel now 4 squares instead of 3. On Short Pass it starts to loose of on benefit 7 instead of 6 but it seems that you always end up 1 square short, so I think this can be a big advantage.
And no it is not a poor man's NoS as it doesn't let you negate TZ.
It can combo with HMP but it's still not a given fact that you will be able to catch the ball. I think you will have about 2/3 of the time a shot at the catching the ball. Which are favorable odds.
If you can screen of that catcher you will almost certain have a TZ on the ball after the pass action. |
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By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 23:31 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | pythrr wrote: | | this is yr definition of "quite useful"? |
I guess so, as I'm not even really sure what choice of words you'd suggest. Do you think it's rather 'amazingly useful' by my definition. Or rather 'irrelevant' by my definition?
@Mrt, completely forgot that I wrote that already...
@fidius, may that be as it is, but it did not bounce or scatter there, it landed there at best. |
I've got the PDF at the ready any time I wonder aloud "What would Wreckage do?" |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 23:37 |
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| El_Jairo wrote: | | Catalyst32 wrote: | | Does anybody think DC would be more useful and taken more often IF it gave you the 1 square of extra movement option I mentioned in the OP? |
That does sound like something worthwhile.
You might pass that idea to Plasmoid for NTT BB rules 2016 for play-testing.
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I don't think that would be such a good idea. It's already one of the most improved skills of that category (using the term 'category' loosly). I'd take it over Catch any day. I'd like to see a general overhaul of the passing category with all their types being a little stronger... but this one does actually give a +1 bonus on catching. Those types of boni are very rare outside of mutation access.
The problem with the passing related skills is that they don't help in the basic game, they don't offer any sort of protection to the player whatsoever and their role in reducing turnovers is neglectable.
It is more one of those things that provides options rather than a stable environment to play. And stability, decend odds is what you crave for in BB. It helps, but it's not.. you know... imagine a team with pass and catch and stuff everywhere going against a regular team with a couple of blockers.
It just gets folded together like paper and doesn't even get to play to its strength.
On the other hand if you would make the pass related skills so powerful that it would be negligent to entirely refuse them, or to make passing that easy with few skills that it would be worthwhile in a lot of situations , that could create some very interesting dynamics.
But I really think, particularly Diving Catch isn't THE particular skill from that category that necessarily needs a boost in addition to the multiple things it does already.
As painstate already elaborated feasibly, it's a very decent skill for human catchers and the like as it is. |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 00:38 |
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Yes, I see it now, it reads "+1 to accurate on his square" I thought this for some odd reason. 
And yeah, even on AG 4 it will pay off to negate a TZ.
I will no longer disregard this skill so easily on catchers. |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:13 |
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| El_Jairo wrote: | | Yes, I see it now, it reads "+1 to accurate on his square" |
Note that it is a bit more complex tho.
Technically you can deal with an inaccurate pass on your own square. For players with no DC that is the only way they could catch something inaccurate. Although inaccurate is a bit of a misleading term. Any flying ball is inaccurate unless it is accurate. So accurate balls are essentially a special case: A passer has targeted a square and done an accurate and successful throw to that square. Catching such a pass is +1. On top of that +1, DC adds another +1.
If you imagine for instance a kick-off that lands on your head, it is not +1 because it is not accurate, and it is not +1 for DC either.
As a consquence you can catch such a ball at equal probability from any of the adjacent squares as if standing on the square itself.
This is also why you technically need ag5 to do a pass to a dc players adjacent square rather than ON the square of the dc. Because while an ag4 can catch an accurate pass on a 2+ this is pass is no longer accurate for the recieving player. Ergo, he loses the general +1 for the accurate catch and the +1 for the DC making it -2 compared to an equal attempt on an accurate pass (which it could do human like with ag3 on a 2+). |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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Wreckage, that is incorrect. In the case where a passer throws the ball accurately to a square adjacent to the diving catch player, the receiver does get +1 for attempting to catch an accurate pass. However, since the accurate pass was not to the receiver's own square, he does not get an additional +1 as described in the diving catch skill.
I just tested this in the FFB client, and unfortunately it is wrong. The client grants no accurate bonus to a ball thrown deliberately to a square adjacent to the diving catch receiver. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:00 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | It works just fine. |
Then imo you've found a ploy in the current client, not a rule.
Fortunately, as you say, it's rarer than... Diving Catch outside of a Slann team.  |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:04 |
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Wouldn't everyone, i mean absolutely everyone really enjoy having their opponent playing slann put their catchers on the line at a KO? |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:11 |
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| Kryten wrote: | | The fine point of that is not directly addressed in the rules, sadly. |
Actually, in the Q&A section, the rules clarify
"...any event that cause the ball to go ... over the line of scrimmage during a kickoff results in a touchback." (p 77, col ii, mid)
Pretty direct to me.
The only counter-argument would be either that the Catch is not "an event" but "an action" (or something) - or, as Wreck suggests, that it is not "during a kickoff", but after. But I don't see it. ymmv. |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:18 |
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In a way I'd say any coach ballsy enough to do it deserves the reward for the obvious and hilarious risk. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 27, 2015 - 10:23 |
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| Kryten wrote: | Wreckage, that is incorrect. In the case where a passer throws the ball accurately to a square adjacent to the diving catch player, the receiver does get +1 for attempting to catch an accurate pass. However, since the accurate pass was not to the receiver's own square, he does not get an additional +1 as described in the diving catch skill.
I just tested this in the FFB client, and unfortunately it is wrong. The client grants no accurate bonus to a ball thrown deliberately to a square adjacent to the diving catch receiver. |
Do the admins know about this bug?
I was exactly thinking to build a diving catch gutter runner only to have the fun to throw the ball out of his square (and pratically giving my thrower a "one square bonus" on all his throw to that player)
Pheraps suboptimal, but surely fun!
But if the bug is there and the is not being resolved early... well, it become TOO suboptimal to take it |
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