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albinv



Joined: Sep 15, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 11:58 Reply with quote Back to top

And not being able to protect the av7 lino = having a bad positional play overall ofc.
A good positional play can avoid (almost...) all hurdles the game has to offer, therefor its obviously the kings way of playing.

So one could also say every mistake boils down to it ofc. But in my case with skaven it is clearly so i think. How you do with skaven shows your overall coaching skills i once read. I think its true.
Most probably there are no worse linos than skaven linos, so really no wonder they leave me clueless beyond hope.
Leilond



Joined: Jan 02, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:03 Reply with quote Back to top

albinv wrote:
And not being able to protect the av7 lino = having a bad positional play overall ofc.
A good positional play can avoid (almost...) all hurdles the game has to offer, therefor its obviously the kings way of playing.

So one could also say every mistake boils down to it ofc. But in my case with skaven it is clearly so i think. How you do with skaven shows your overall coaching skills i once read. I think its true.
Most probably there are no worse linos than skaven linos, so really no wonder they leave me clueless beyond hope.

Ehehe... I'm a skaven fan and play them a lot... and yes, skaven linos are pure cannon fodder. You don't need to protect them, because you live relaxing with the fact that you will have three or four or them injuried every match. You know it as a matter of fact
Worse than skaven linos? Thrall and Hobgoblin


Last edited by Leilond on Mar 27, 2015 - 12:07; edited 1 time in total
Loew



Joined: Feb 02, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Vampire and Slann, sure, they are supposed to be weird.
Slann feel weirder than Vamps to me...

I never really got Underworld. I know they are not supposed to be good, but I have seen coaches that at least get decent success with them, while I just find them unwieldy and lose a lot Wink

lastly, and really weird, because I seem to be a minority on this:
Amazon and Norse (Norse was worth in LRB4) - somehow I can't wrap my head around what I should do with all those uniform, mediocre players
albinv



Joined: Sep 15, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah true...the thralls. Yes, those fellas are proven fodder by design.

But a rat lino...i mean its still a skaven right? I think somehow the ever deceiving rats did lure me into this notion all to often. Lately as i play bad overall it just became too obvious, even to me, how crappy they really are. x)

I play with a little bench and only 3 gutters, due to fearing the high tv areas, maybe i should change that for a try.
Yes, gonna take this excellent fumbbl thread as an opportunity to change my coaching. Wanna master these god damn critters one day, damnit!
Leilond



Joined: Jan 02, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:18 Reply with quote Back to top

albinv wrote:
Ah true...the thralls. Yes, those fellas are proven fodder by design.

But a rat lino...i mean its still a skaven right? I think somehow the ever deceiving rats did lure me into this notion all to often. Lately as i play bad overall it just became too obvious, even to me, how crappy they really are. x)

I play with a little bench and only 3 gutters, due to fearing the high tv areas, maybe i should change that for a try.
Yes, gonna take this excellent fumbbl thread as an opportunity to change my coaching. Wanna master these god damn critters one day, damnit!

Skaven play with 4 gutter, from the very beginning.
If you make a "round around" to watch for good skaven coaches (not me) in the box and in the ranked, at one point you'll learn a big skaven secret:
"Never never never love a player, nor a linerat, nor the uber gutter runner ST4 gutter runner legend. They all are going to die, exactly in the next match you reached the precise skill combination you dreamed when the team was created. If you play to win, you will lose lines, you will be short in players during the drive, there's no way to prevent every one of your beloved positionals to be blitzed and pombed"
The only rat you're sure will be alive the next match, is the one badly hurt
I don't know if skaven teach you to play better. Surely they teach you to lose players
Roland



Joined: May 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Leilond wrote:
"Never never never love a player, nor a linerat, nor the uber gutter runner ST4 gutter runner legend. They all are going to die, exactly in the next match you reached the precise skill combination you dreamed when the team was created. If you play to win, you will lose lines, you will be short in players during the drive, there's no way to prevent every one of your beloved positionals to be blitzed and pombed"
The only rat you're sure will be alive the next match, is the one badly hurt


This is not just a skaven secret though, but it affects skaven (and other AV7 races) especially. However, it is an universal Blood Bowl truth that, when you understand it, will make playing the game even more fun.
Stonetroll



Joined: Jun 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Ogres. Once every long while I forget why and try them, only to realize they were nerfed so hard they now inhabit a whole different dimension of awful.

Re: skaven. While flattering to skaven coaches, I don't think they are the final test of skill. They have easy access to almost all of the "too good" mechanics of the game, like cpombing, oneturning and fast blodge ag4 players. Their biggest weakness is the lineman.

If you want to truly master the game, play humans Smile
tmoila



Joined: Nov 25, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Any team with less agility than 4 as default.

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albinv



Joined: Sep 15, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:48 Reply with quote Back to top

@Leiland
Good points. Im not a pixelhugger, actually played risky always - including a lot of cas on both sides. But lately playing so badly overall seems to really have spoiled me on all levels.

Lately you can see me trying to build double fences and cages against flings where i normally would have run a loose cage against elves. Or hiding my gutters on defense trying to mimic a classic slow down game, which doenst work with av7 ag3 linos ofc.
I especially played aggressive and risky with skaven actually. Maybe im too blessed with doubles rolls on skaven. It really seems they think they all must get warpstoned as soon as i put my hands on them.
Yeah, it really became obvious in my last matches - gonna try to change that too.
Good hints thanks, they're appreciated!

@Stonetroll

Oh, not in the sense of "mastering the game" ofc. Skaven can easily win games, even in rookies hands and are far from being an average team.
But they will show one central basic point of the game very well, which is knowing when to take risky high impact plays (and leave the rules of thumb) and when to play it save and conservative. And that is often paired with inducing turnovers and traps.
How to manage the av7 lino is also a very basic indicator i guess. They are so crappy you need some idea of how to position them so they can work with your positionals.
Also basic thing to master in the game is clock management ofc. Skaven rely on this and must play it very well, in much more ways than the grinders. So more like an indicator of how good one has understood some of the most basic but truely important parts of bb.

Anyhow, enough skaven talk i guess. Apologize to the fumbbl mob, this got a bit lengthy indeed (if not completely uninteresting for the skaven coaches).
Leilond



Joined: Jan 02, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I tried some times to play vampires and I didn't understand at all what to do with them. I really don't know what skill to give them, when, how... really, I tried, and miserably failed

@albinv
If you have to protect a player, protect the skilled blitzers, not the gutter runner
If you lose a gutter, you pay 80k, buy another one, and in 4-5 matches, if you play correctly, he will have at least two new skills (and with dodge+side step they defend themselves better than blitzers)
If you lose a 16spp blitzer, you'll spend 90k and you don't know if you ever manage to bring him to 16spp again!
All this if you think it worth something to protect a skaven
Kam



Joined: Nov 06, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 12:58 Reply with quote Back to top

You know, Skaven are kinda special.

Many Fling coaches pick them as they're supposedly easy to beat, but I always struggle against them, unless... they're coached by some of the best players. My Flings have tied versus Helena High for instance, in one of the best games I've played. They've recently lost to Cubic, but the game was undecided until the last turn. And I could go on. And in the meantime, if I play a rookie coach, I'm gonna lose. Go figure... Wink

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albinv



Joined: Sep 15, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 13:13 Reply with quote Back to top

@Leilond

Yes. Very basic skaven stuff. But i tell you its appreciated. The things you know but still dont do anymore if nuffle had you in the clinch and you starting to dig your own grave. Those hints really arrive just on point and in time! Those streaks...gotta say this is the first one that really got me playing bad solidly. It just came after a personal peak ofc.
But during that peak i really worked on all aspects i had an idea of so far and even pushed beyond and saw the game was still more complex than i thought (parts i hoped it had to offer, but came to think it hadnt). What a pleasant experience indeed. So i think i now realize that streak was really more frustrating to someone that has some (if admittedly, fairly mad) love for the game then i thought i guess...

@Kam

Hmm, gotta crunch on that a bit. Not as long as i did for a reply to the GLN thread though...
It sucks so much i still havent got back man! x|
JMkiller



Joined: Jun 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Stonetroll wrote:
Ogres. Once every long while I forget why and try them, only to realize they were nerfed so hard they now inhabit a whole different dimension of awful.

Re: skaven. While flattering to skaven coaches, I don't think they are the final test of skill. They have easy access to almost all of the "too good" mechanics of the game, like cpombing, oneturning and fast blodge ag4 players. Their biggest weakness is the lineman.

If you want to truly master the game, play humans Smile


Ahh humans you say.. i havent tried them here on fumbbl or on TT... they dont look too weird for me, but they are just blank... no flavor or topping Very Happy

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cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 14:18 Reply with quote Back to top

All Elves (and to a lesser extent Slann and Skaven) on offense when the situation calls for an elfstall.

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Leilond



Joined: Jan 02, 2012

Post   Posted: Mar 27, 2015 - 15:08 Reply with quote Back to top

cdassak wrote:
All Elves (and to a lesser extent Slann and Skaven) on offense when the situation calls for an elfstall.

I played skaven since a very lot... and I think I've learned to "stall" no more than... wait... I haven't properly learned yet!!!
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