| Poll |
| Keep the team or delete? |
| Delete |
|
23% |
[ 14 ] |
| Keep |
|
76% |
[ 46 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 60 |
|
tibbo
Joined: Aug 09, 2014
|
 Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 18:59 |
 
|
that is true , i do get a bit carried away. i like the concept.. did buy extra linemen so i could try hide and keep the one turners safe rather than watching them get hunted down each half...
btw that game was 6-8 with his woodies scoring the opening two touchdowns off blitzes due to my poor coaching i guess heh. and i believe 3 interceptions. |
|
|
harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 19:07 |
|
| tibbo wrote: | | but at one stage he did delete players to focus on his legendary ... including players without injuries and with a few levels. All i want to know is if this is acceptable? or wrong? |
All the skilled players he sacked were in 2009, which predates Journey Men. I know that team has been in really really bad shape before, especially in LRB4. However the exact situation of the sackings I couldn't comment without spending hours checking.
The bottom line is this:
*Can you sack uninjured players? Yes, if when you ready your team you have at least 11 players.
*Can I sack players if it takes me below 11 players? Yes, if those players are injured, meaning they're a liability and a negative influence on a rebuild.
*Can I sack players if it takes me below 11 players, I don't have the money to buy new players and they are not injured? You can (ability), but this is contrary to site rules, which means you should not. However an admin's decision is always final. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 19:26 |
|
| Wreckage wrote: | | He's taking injuries because he can't properly protect the team. He can't protect it because he doesn't take protective skills and rather improves woodies on something they are already good at. |
You can learn a lot about bloodbowl by simply not listening to anyone else but Wreckage. He's perfectly summed up your issues and seems to be willing to teach you about TV management and skill selection. If you're lucky, he might even take the time to answer some more questions in PMs, without the forum noise of the plebs guiding you incorrectly.
I would strongly suggest that you put wood elves aside and ask if Wreckage will teach you to play high elves. Learning to position elves properly, while using the core skills of block and dodge on every player will teach you how to protect your weaker AV7 catchers and protect the ballcarrier without resorting to a passing offence that requires investment in skills that have no value on defence.
Alternately, you can try to learn to play wood elves the way I do, which combines a fast scoring offense with a high pressure defence. This is admittedly a less-effective way to play the game than through positioning and turn 8 scores, but I find it enjoyable. In order to make this sub-optimal overarching strategy viable, you will likely have to ruthlessly min-max your TV and get better in game selection to ensure you can throw the ball around while still winning games and keeping your team intact.
The alternative is to continue to bloat your elf teams to 2000+ TV and watch them get mangled, keeping the injured players to progressively worsen your chances of winning. You've seen that this approach isn't working, and the hard facts are that the solution is not small tweaks to a skill here or there, it's a complete overhaul of your approach to elf teams in general. |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 19:27 |
|
| harvestmouse wrote: |
*Can I sack players if it takes me below 11 players, I don't have the money to buy new players and they are not injured? You can (ability), but this is contrary to site rules, which means you should not. However an admin's decision is always final. |
Wow, I had no idea such a rule existed. |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 19:54 |
|
| tibbo wrote: | | Well i personally like kor as no matter what happens i seem to have to travel a long distance to get the ball on the kickoff, and with a one turner like i had/ have it seemed to work to guarantee the best pass / catch / pickup to get the ball to him. |
Yes and it is important that you say that and add that.
My understanding is that you OT score every single offense, is that right?
I think that is a concept that wouldn't be obvious to everyone. Most people use the OT-scorer to fix an exploit which comes from the opponent scoring in the final turn of the half and giving no opportunity to score back. Otherwise he is usually even left off pitch to not get injured.
Using the OT-scorer like you do, isn't wrong- when you can't do better.. but you always gotta ask yourself if you really can't do better... you're relying on some action that requires you to do about 5 rolls... pick up, hand off, gfi, gfi, gfi.. ideally.. one of those rolls fails and you probably lose the game... am I wrong there?
So, I guess something to keep in mind is that you don't have to play like that. Most of the time you have plenty of time to score. There is no need whatsoever to rush it. But I can respect KoR in conjunction with that strategy and I really think people should choose skills that make sense for the way they play. It doesn't make sense when you take the skills the community tells you to take and then you go on playing completely different than most people do  ...
| Quote: | Was one of the few skills i used regardless of snake eyes or ones as it isnt effected by it , kinda why im interested in passblock i cant really fail it and it still is used.
|
Well, you can break your neck using it... tho.. the main issue with pass block is that it requires your opponents cooperation to be used. You must be able to tell that your opponent is going to pass and where he is going to do it. Of course you could spam it all over your team and make passing virtually impossible and that would be great. But that again would cost 5-6 skills and a lot of TV...
Some opponents don't pass at all ever. Be aware that the TV invested is completely wasted in such games. And other teams will just not pass by choice when your pass blocker is near. So, if it all works out he's going to be great but the main issue is as mentioned: He just doesn't make anyone healthier. He isn't going to cause any turnovers but he isn't going to help you prevent any either.
| Quote: |
But wreckage, i do understand what your saying and it does make sense actually .. I've gotten to far ahead of myself with playing the ball, yet the problem is the cas, so all linemen block/dodge /guard? if dbl? Delete a few after the next or just ride em out till death ? |
Definitely Blodge on everyone ASAP.. that should be a priority from the start. Note tho that I do believe in what rat wrote about developing just 5 players, meaning you shouldn't push to Blodge up the linemen and just let them skill naturally when opportunity arises while focusing on the key players.
Regarding Guard.. Guard is very good... Side Step is good because it gives you game control... Side step is good with diving tackle... side step should actually take priority to diving tackle because a DT can be just pushed away. SS (post blodge) allows you avoid multiple blocks on one of your players and you can still be pretty nasty dancing around the opponent.
The difference with those skills compared to the skills you have mostly taken is that they are high quality skills AND combo.. while skills like catch and NoS and Pass Block may combo, but all are weak on their own and just useable in conjunction.
So if for instance your DT- WD had SS he'd be very good. Of course he's be also good if he had piling on, just in a different way. There is a bit of uncommitedness there but at least he takes good skills. Which is a great start.
Mb is never a terrible choice, also not in terms of survival. Because MB means you can remove opposing threats. If there are less threats, you have more players, you have easier assists, less turnovers, more successful blocks, less blocks on your, your odds increase, you lose less players. So Guard you need but MB is great too. SS is great. Dt is ok.
So the Block, MB linemen aren't precisely bad for the skills, the BDT, lino isn't bad for the skills, but they are all already injured..
..there is a cap at I think 1750... from of there spiralling expenses starts... that's something you really want to look out for when playing a team like woodies and keeping non essential players... 10 k less per game isn't that much but when you do 7 games at that tv it means you'll have 70k less after... if you play at a tv of 1900+ it will be 140k less after 7 games and if you do it with a TV of 2050+ you already would lose 210k in 7 games, meaning there isn't that much left.
For most teams money isn't a huge issue, but with woodies I found that when you survive a game, you usually should win, just because your players are that much better. The problem is to keep the team intact till the end of the game.
The tree has piling on.. I dunno, i was advised by Azure, one of the best coaches on the site to take PO on trees and double it up with jump up. Which is great, I'm not sure whether Piling On will ever be useful alone on the tree...
So.. seriously don't do something you feel would ruin your strategy.. just... as many people have told you.. if you wanna have a good team you gotta start retiring the garbage. And with which one your players you start doesn't really matter. If you got rid of all the injured players at once right now, that team would be very amazing.
If you go half way, dropped your TV a bit that team would still be fine and you would get actual money in your games.
If you keep the team like it is, hey at least you got 13 players on the roster which goes a long way... You won't get any money but oh well.. Just try to take some good skills from here on out, ok? |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 20:09 |
|
| Wreckage wrote: | | The tree has piling on.. I dunno, i was advised by Azure, one of the best coaches on the site to take PO on trees and double it up with jump up. Which is great, I'm not sure whether Piling On will ever be useful alone on the tree... |
Yeah, see here's the problem with following the advice of Azure. This is a guy who goes 55-92 with halflings in blackbox at 1500tv. Azure wins in all sorts of crazy ways with strange combinations of players that frankly a normal coach simply can't replicate. Maybe he can win 2/3rds of his games in box with a rat ogre as a featured player, but most rat coaches will tell you not to use one at all.
Personally, I tried to learn from Azure and most of the stuff I tried to copy simply didn't work. Basically it boils down to the fact that bloodbowl is only half the strategy of team building. The other half is in-game tactics and understanding of odds. I honestly believe some of his team-building could be better, but his tactics are so advanced that it really doesn't matter.
I wouldn't take piling on for a Wood Elf treeman in a million years. The whole point of that thing is to tie up players so your elves can run around free. Having him lie down on the pitch and need to roll dice to stand up again, roll dice again to see if he takes root, and then roll GFI's to actually go anywhere that turn seems insane. I don't care if it works for Azure, it's not going to work for anyone else, because it's bad.
The reason it works for Azure is that when a piling on treeman DOES work, it's going to work spectacularly well, and Azure is going to roll you. The flip side is that if the treeman takes a dump on turn 1 and is useless for the rest of the game, Azure is so much better than you that his high risk-high reward strategy failing doesn't matter. He just wins despite spotting you a useless treeman, his Rat Ogre going wild animal 5 times, or by the simple fact that he's playing halflings against chaos dwarves.
That doesn't make trying these things yourself a good idea because... well, you're not Azure. Azure could win half his games if he gave every coach he played a wizard and two bloodweiser babes. |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 20:33 |
|
| harvestmouse wrote: |
*Can I sack players if it takes me below 11 players, I don't have the money to buy new players and they are not injured? You can (ability), but this is contrary to site rules, which means you should not. However an admin's decision is always final. |
Even if it only takes you down to say 10 or 9 men as opposed to 4 or 5?
Even if some of those players have pretty dodgy skill choices? |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 20:47 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: |
That doesn't make trying these things yourself a good idea because... well, you're not Azure. Azure could win half his games if he gave every coach he played a wizard and two bloodweiser babes. |
This is why there really should be tiered advice - What the coaches at the upper echelons are doing with their skills and players in game really don't help someone struggling to win 1 out of 3 games. |
|
|
harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 21:29 |
|
| koadah wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: |
*Can I sack players if it takes me below 11 players, I don't have the money to buy new players and they are not injured? You can (ability), but this is contrary to site rules, which means you should not. However an admin's decision is always final. |
Even if it only takes you down to say 10 or 9 men as opposed to 4 or 5?
Even if some of those players have pretty dodgy skill choices? |
This was the original intention of the rule, that you do not intentionally deteriorate your team. Sacking healthy players to replace them with JMs is clearly doing that. Be that 1, 2 or 7.
However it became a 'spirit of the game' rule with lrb 6 and Journey Men. I.e. although the BBRC have clarified it's 'ok' (more covering their arses) deliberately playing with JMs isn't the intention of the JM rule. This is Christer's ruling and this is Christer's house, live with it. Obviously I also think spirit rules are vital to the game. It's shame a lot of coaches just cannot see this in this day and age.
All this said, a bit of leniency/common sense was applied to lrb 4 teams converting to CRP (it would have been detrimental to punish these teams trying to become competitive when a new team could do it in a few games). So..........to answer your question, Admin's discretion. However if you picked wasteful skills, that was your choice. Personally, I think you should live with that and make the changes when it's possible. There is a help section, and a team guide that is very easy to locate. |
|
|
C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 22:44 |
|
Not "intentionally deteriorate your team". Its when you offer uncompetitive games. I declare, I can beat you with only 8-th players! Or, wo throwing any blocks. The latter is not enforceable, I can change my mind and block you turn 3. If I suddenly play 7 man football, thats enforceable, as my oppo can SEE how many players I got before accepting.
Incidentally, I think ppl have done both 1 vs 1 and 7 vs 7 and other variants on the site in the past.
Anyhow, you still see this type of game, sort off. I play you but "wont use my other Wardancer only Vindaloo" for example.
Not offering competetive games, is a far cry frm regular team management situations. Both when I or other high TV elf coaches try to drop TV to get money, or when smallman keept his team very low on the old B server, did that to win games (with slightly different goals and timeframes).
I have several teams thats in a down spiral. https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=731401 is one; that is easily recoverable but I would have to fire 5# (and funnily I wont want to) and also play with less then 11 to get max money. Will take a handfull games, if I dont I will keep losing more players then I earn. |
Last edited by C3I2 on %b %25, %2015 - %07:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
|
albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 01:58 |
|
| mrt1212 wrote: | | This is why there really should be tiered advice - What the coaches at the upper echelons are doing with their skills and players in game really don't help someone struggling to win 1 out of 3 games. |
Well analyzed if i might say.
With academy gone there -imho- is only really one plausible/ practicable way to do/ organize that while keeping fumbbls core coaches halfway sane and unstressed. Which is to build up on koadah's fine 145er club, enhance its function and officially and finally build it into what it - inofficially - already is for quite some while anyway: Fumbbls new Academy and also most probably one of the main factors that can keep newcomers around and attached to the game/ site.
As great and epic Academy (probably also fairly naive in very likeable manner) may have been as a community project - imho a practical "real deal" environment is the better Academy anyway. Learn to swim by jumping into water. Walked through matches could be done there too anyway if demand and capacities allow. |
Last edited by albinv on %b %25, %2015 - %02:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 02:25 |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 02:41 |
|
| koadah wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: |
This is why there really should be tiered advice - What the coaches at the upper echelons are doing with their skills and players in game really don't help someone struggling to win 1 out of 3 games. |
Did Azure actually recommend taking piling on on the tree? |
He just recommended it to me in the context with fling teams. He didn't recommend it publicly or for elf teams.
To be honest, when you want to compete against the best coaches, the smartest thing you can do is not to tell everyone why stuff works that you do.
My point was just being that I didn't think PO was a good skill for the tree on the woodie team as one of the few healthy players. (Which is a skill the OPs tree already has).
I'm not a fan of a woodie-tree in general tho... When your outlook is to have maybe 5 useful players be on pitch by the end of the half- with a tree it's always gonna be one less. |
|
|
C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 07:38 |
|
It works with jump-up, as you suddenly have zero movementpoints, for standing up. PO on a tree with mv+ also works fine. Thus you dont need TWO doubles like on those wardancers (that have other things to do anyway) only one. I'd still consider using block/pro first, but when you reach legend those block/pro trees takes has very high TV.... and takes out less oppos then the PO one.
I'd do it for flings also, who else going to hit anyway? A well known team that goes west young man, has three mb/po players... |
Last edited by C3I2 on %b %25, %2015 - %09:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
|
JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 08:21 |
|
| albinv wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | This is why there really should be tiered advice - What the coaches at the upper echelons are doing with their skills and players in game really don't help someone struggling to win 1 out of 3 games. |
Well analyzed if i might say.
With academy gone there -imho- is only really one plausible/ practicable way to do/ organize that while keeping fumbbls core coaches halfway sane and unstressed. Which is to build up on koadah's fine 145er club, enhance its function and officially and finally build it into what it - inofficially - already is for quite some while anyway: Fumbbls new Academy and also most probably one of the main factors that can keep newcomers around and attached to the game/ site.
As great and epic Academy (probably also fairly naive in very likeable manner) may have been as a community project - imho a practical "real deal" environment is the better Academy anyway. Learn to swim by jumping into water. Walked through matches could be done there too anyway if demand and capacities allow. |
+1 to 145 club being totally awesome.
-1 to what mrt said. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
|
|
|
| |
Gnomes are trash
Search
