Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
 Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 07:52 |
 
|
Ok thanks, Duke, Licker, Koadah, bghandras, Stonetroll and Rat_Salat.. I think with the input you have given me I can already draw something up... thanks and I'll make sure to mention you all in the guide. |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 10:11 |
|
@League
Completely different animal. Lets take a real example. I played amazons in both league, box, and ranked. I take this example as this shows the biggest difference.
- Box build is all about TV efficiency, no nonsense. No plan B.
- Ranked ones usually have a plan B, but I cant usually afford a plan C.
- League ones are on the other hand totally different, depending on the meta of the league, and the next 1-2 opponents. Skill choices are twisted by the pulling of league needs.
@Wardancers
I agree that the quickest way to get a decent roster starts with woodies.
Typical differences include, but are not restricted to:
- Taking sure hands with blitzer in league when next opponent has strip baller wardancer. Even instead of stat increase.
- Developing a bunch of Guarding blitzers, and no killer types when facing orcs, dwarves, etc.
- Developing a dedicated ball handler at Ranked, as opposed to Blackbox, and sometimes opposed to League (without stripper), as I may play up and down significantly, and ball handler is one of the holy trinity (of killer, ballhandler, 1turner).
@1turning
What was left is the counterstrategy to 1turning, like developing 2-3 stand firm and or side stepper.
Taking away 1 piece from the holy trinity also improves your chances. 40k-60k is probably worth in TV cost to counter 1 turning. (But not much more.)
It is not team building, but the proper setup for and against 1 turning in relation to the players on the pitch is also vital. You can manufacture a very decent setup if you have 1 side stepper per stand firmer. |
|
|
DrPoods
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 11:11 |
|
| BillBrasky wrote: | Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And hear the lamentation of their women.
Oh wait. Wrong thread  |
No mate. This is still the right thread for that. A kind of team building aim after all!  |
_________________
"Gallifrey falls no more"
Do your part! Join the Adoption Agency NOW! |
|
Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 11:34 |
|
At the danger of volunteering work for someone else. If we are seeking to answer the question of how one should build a team to win a major tournament the scientist in me would say we should look at the winners of major tournaments rather than rely on intuition. I am sure that a lot of the points observed would hold but it would be good to empirically verify them.
This would be easy but I don't know an easy way to see the constituents of a major winning team at the time of their successes short of going through the replays player by player. |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 11:35 |
|
I am an empirist too, but do not mix and match LRB4 rosters with the current requirements. Whatever worked there might be counterproductive at LRB6 environment. So the sample size of LRB6 major winning rosters may or may not be statistically viable. |
|
|
Stonetroll
Joined: Jun 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 11:50 |
|
One role for a player that has yet been left with little attention, but one I would like to add for your consideration.
Space creator
An unglamorous player whose job is to take hits while making it as little attractive as possible to focus on him. These players are used to create the opportunities your other players need to make a play. A very basic one is a lineman of any race with nothing but wrestle. Good for both marking killers from hitting your important players, and also dangerous to leave into contact too, as he can always make a 2 dice against block if it means opening up a shot at the ball. Another example is a nurgle warrior with block, dodge and stand firm. Players like j0de can sometimes hold up half a team by themselves for that crucial turn you need to break through. For elves, a more expensive kind is a blodge sidestep DT fend player, and teams like dark elves can easily field several of these guys build from blitzers who don't roll special skills. The fend makes him especially annoying, as follow-up blocks are more likely to be just 1 dice. |
|
|
Macabeo
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 12:14 |
|
Great contributions, Bghandras and Wreckage!
I agree with the need of having some fouler or at the very least some chumps around so you can lay the boot. I cringe whenever I see an Orc team with 4 Black Orcs, 4 Blitzers, 1 Troll and 1 Thrower, and the lone Lineorc has stats increases or a bunch of skills and they are left with no one to foul with.
| Wreckage wrote: | | Three position control players to stop unnatural OT-scores. |
I'm repeating myself here, but in most cases you only need 2 position control players, not three. The blitz against the player in the middle of the line of scrimmage can be easliy prevented in most cases. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 13:12 |
|
| licker wrote: | | happygrue wrote: | | Rat_Salat wrote: |
Now, I don't need to teach you about odds, you're going to get a +ST roll on your wardancer 1 in 36 times. If we cycle the boring ones by simply playing aggressively with them, you're going to get a +ST roll eventually. +AG is even more common, and while the +ST, +AG variants are probably astronomically rare, eventually one will come along.
|
How many Wardancers do I need to cycle before I can end up with one that has kick? |
If the infinite universe theory is true then you already have!
You even took it as his first skill after he got niggled  |
Actually, he was healthy when he got the last skill, and was retired on a niggle. Sort of the point, despite being a +MA, Mighty Blow, I knew I could do better and wasn't sad when he got retired. I'd used my Apo earlier in the match on a BH, because +MA, MB isn't worth a dedicated Apothecary in my mind... with or without kick. He certainly wasn't worth a potion, a trick still in my bag for the right player.
So, out with the old and in with the new. I've had five +ST wardancers, including Helios, who only lived 15 games, and Hobo, who lived only 12. Now, clearly getting five +ST rolls in 15 wardancers is incredibly lucky... but since most made it to superstar, if not legend, I had 75 skill rolls to make that happen. Odds are I was going to see three. Five is lucky, but I did have to wait for the 14th one to see my first +AG. The average lifespan of a +ST wardancer on one of my teams is abour 50 games. A wardancer without +ST will be lucky to play half that many.
Skill rolls are a lottery. The more tickets you buy, the better your chances. How do you end up with five +ST wardancers and only two +MA catchers? You skill and cycle your two wardancers faster than you skill and cycle your team's one catcher.
As for MB/PO elf linemen, I've given quite a bit of thought as to how to pull this off. The problem is that the default lineman double for my teams is actually guard and not mighty blow. The only time I do take MB on a line elf is if I lack it on either wardancer. This is generally a narrow condition, and the chances of me even giving mighty blow to a lineman is fairly slim.
Of course, once your lineman DOES have mighty blow, assuming you took it as a first skill, your chances of getting a second double in the next four are actually not too bad. If one were actually attempting to create such a player, a simple rule of taking MB on a first skill and Guard on anything after 6spp would probably increase chances significantly.
Given the attitude of ranked players towards a block/mighty blow/piling on/tackle/jump up Wood Elf lineman, I generally don't spend a lot of time trying to build these players. I suspect if the goal were to get one, I could have them on a far more regular basis, simply by cycling linemen faster and weeding out the ones who fail to achieve the desired result. |
|
|
cdassak
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 14:19 |
|
This is an interesting topic, couldn't keep up with it yesterday but now I got some time so here are some thoughts about things discussed:
1) Killer skills
The core is Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Piling on and Claw (where applicable).
Some players start with Block but many killer types don't (Beastmen, CW, Prestis, Maruders, Slann blitzers and the occasional lino that will become a killer - usually elf)
I guess tackle (e.g. for teams with multiple killers) and to a lesser extend piling on (e.g. Vampires) can be optional in some cases.
So to build a basic killer you either need 5 (beastman, presti, marauder etc), 4 (Saurus, slann and UW blitzer, wolf, elf lino etc) or 3 skills (human, orc and elf blitzers, wights, berzekers etc).
Other possible killer skills:
a) Jump Up
Great synergy with piling on. Increases the killer's range after using piling on. Also, can give possibility to a block if someone's next to him next turn.
b) Frenzy
Both as a surfing tool (synergy with juggernaut) and to give a 'second' chance against the target. It can be dangerous in case the first block fails so some teams can't support it (e.g I dont like it for UW blitzers because usually they can't guarantee that the second block will be 2D). One could say that it also depends on the killers MA (e.g maybe not so good for orcs)
c) Dauntless
Situational but can be useful for non - strength teams.
d) Pro
It can be used for the normal rolls (block, dodge and gfi) but gets more value if the killer has jump up and/or dauntless.
e) Dodge
Mainly for survival but also to facilitate the killers movement if he is marked.
f) Horns (where applicable)
Not much to say, +ST can be gold for UW and Skaven blitzers probably Marauders too.
g) Break Tackle
For ST4 (e.g Saurus) or AG2 (BlitzRA, Troll Slayer etc) players
h) Sure Feet (?) - Sprint (?)
To 'safely' increase the killer's range, especially a Frenzy one.
i) Stats
I think there is a case for all stat increases (except maybe AV but some believe in the extra protection against fouls for piling on killers). It depends on the killer type and when the stat increase is rolled in his skill progression so can't cover all the possibilities. (e.g I would probably ignore +MA for a Beastman as his 3rd skill but would probably take it as his legend one)
Footnotes
1. The above skills can be normal or doubles depending on the killer type.
2. I focused on the 'blitzer' type killer. There is also the 'lineman' type killer and the BigGuy killer with a bit different skill paths (guard, stand firm, juggernaut, tentacles maybe even diving tackle come into the mix).
To be continued... |
|
|
Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 14:26 |
|
| Quote: | | Given the attitude of ranked players towards a block/mighty blow/piling on/tackle/jump up Wood Elf lineman, I generally don't spend a lot of time trying to build these players. |
I'm not going to give advices on how to win a major since I yet have to win one, but I think that's a very important point here.
If you want to do well in tournaments, you need a balanced team, and most teams in R or B are not. Take Tackle for instance. Tackle is one of the most important skills IG, yet a lot of coaches have only one. I feel comfortable with 4, or more. Yet, taking 5 or 6 Tackle in R is unnecessary since most dodgy teams won't accept your game offers anymore if you do so. You'd be stuck with bash teams, and indeed, generally, you don't team that many Tackles against bashers.
That's something that strikes me every Zon XFL. If you look at the 5 currently remaining teams (I'm excluding mine), 3 of them have only 1 Tackler, and one of them has only 2. Ranked doesn't encourage you to create balanced teams, and that's likely to backfire at some point in tournaments. |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
 |
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 15:01 |
|
Well the ranked conversation is relevant, because ultimately if you do want to win a major, you're going to have to build up a team in one of the two divisions to compete. I won't comment on box, but while I don't have a major win, or even enter the tournaments, I think I have a fairly decent idea of how to build an elf team that hits in the requirements mentioned in this thread.
So in ranked you have to remember that while most players would like to win, what they really don't want is to lose, and have their team destroyed in the process. They will play games at 1350tv against elf teams with 5AG leaping sackers, yet turn down games against dwarves with 3 mighty blow.
So understanding this mentality, if we were building an elf team for a major, we would probably go after the rarest player first... that of the stat freak elf, in this example, a wardancer.
Once we had our wardancer, we could hire catchers and score with them until we found a +MA one. With our final stat-dependant piece in hand, the oneturner, we play a few games to fill out the team with the rest of the pieces of the puzzle, the only difficult one to build being the MB/PO lineman, if desired.
This is essentially what many elf coaches attempting to win a major are doing, except they are cycling entire teams when the desired stat freak elf does not appear in a reasonable period of time. It is a fairly simple matter to create a new Wood Elf team, pick a 1000tv cherry and skill both wardancers. If each wardancer skill nets a 1/12 chance of +ST or +AG, you would on average find either stat by your fourth wardancer to 31spp.
Now, I'm not going to comment on if this practice violates the spirit of the site rules, but clearly there are coaches attempting this. Given the number of elf teams entering majors with 30-2-1 records and such, this teambuilding behavior is popular. How succesful it has been I question, but I suspect that has more to do with the difficulty of keeping a AV7 team intact for an entire majors run then with the effectiveness of the team in the early rounds.
Had I the desire to enter majors, my wood elves could have on many occasions been parked with the "trinity" present, ready to enter. Since I prefer to simply play my teams, they instead tend to be missing some of the pieces needed, most notably the developed linemen to round out the squad.
If I wanted to try and win a major, that is how I would go about it. |
|
|
cdassak
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 15:12 |
|
2) Building a second killer
Obviously this refers to 'non bashers' (Elves, Slann, Vampires, UW and Skaven). Bashers usually build two or more killers anyway.
The main disadvantage is what bghandras mentioned, you can only blitz once per turn so each turn one killer will not be used for what he is build for (so in a way you don't use your TV efficiently). Also, it takes more time to build two killers because you will have to split the 'killer' blitzes and other spps to both of them.
The main advantage (for in game tactics) is that you increase the killer blitz range and possible targets if you have two killers. This is especially true for piling on killers because they diminish their range after using it.
The problem with having just one killer is what happens to the team when he's gone (for tournaments that is obviously bad, you play the rest of the tourney with no hitting power).
I experienced it with my first Vampire box team (nowadays I'm almost convinced that vamps don't have to build a killer but that's another discussion) but the best example I can give is these Slann:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=770923
They had one killer, he died, so where do they go from here?
Build another killer (or forget about it) ?
Which one? (rookie blitzer, one of the skilled blitzers or Krox)
Building a new killer will be hard because even in the 'controlled' environment of Ranked, games at 1940TV have much higher danger of attrition. So when they finally get their killer they will (probably) have lost some other key players on the way.
My point is that when you lose your only killer, apart from 'diminishing' your tournament chances (if it happens during a tourney) you may have great difficulty to build another one from scratch, especially at high TVs. |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 15:19 |
|
If killing is fundamental to your strategy, then build a 2nd one, and have maximum 1 ball handler and sacker in total, or even just the handler. The importance of insurance policy, the fact that those teams pay 20k, not 30k for each killing skill (or most), and the extra range not to miss any good blitz makes it probably a good bet. I would not advocate a 3rd one though.
Similarily, if sacking is your main strategy (woodies), then you may need a 2nd sacker specialist, and might be OK having no killer. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 16:08 |
|
I think wood elves, due to the imbalance that is the wardancer, hardly have to chose between sackers and killers, since it takes the third stat to force the elf player to choose between an arguably better GS skill than mighty blow. I had this situation with Tex, where he took three stats, tackle, and strip ball before rolling a double at legend. This is fairly uncommon, and you can happily take +ST, +AG, sidestep, tackle, strip ball, and mighty blow and have yourself a complete package.
In fact, it's pretty rare for my elf teams to NOT have mighty blow on both wardancers, which I consider probably superior to a second killer anyway. In close games, you often don't have extra blitzes lying around to dedicate solely to attrition, and your tacklepomber can often go unused for a time.
I think the ideal setup for really any elf team is mighty blow on a couple of blitzers, and then that tacklepomber lineman. Of course, at this point in the team's development you better be ready for that major, because you aren't going to be getting any ranked games that don't include a healthy shot of nasty removal on the other side.
My high elves, at one point had this setup... with a +ST mighty blow blitzer, leaping sacker, second mighty blow blitzer, and a pomber lineman. At that point, predictably the games dried up, and I ended up retiring the pomber, then losing both blitzers the very next game. Had I parked them instead, they were very close to major-quality, lacking really only a couple of guard linemen to be complete.
Wreckage, you are a perfectionist and like myself, your teams will never be perfect. If you do want that major you very much have the ability to win, you are going to need to have the discipline to park your teams at a certain point and decide that they are good enough. Playing "just one more game" to get that skill here or there that finally gets your teams to perfection leads to the inevitable haircut game. Perhaps someday the stars will align and you will have the perfect team at the perfect time, but likely you will have to go with something 90%, rather than shoot for 100% all the time.
And for god's sakes, if you ever get to 100%, park that baby and leave it alone... because I for one would love to see you win one. |
|
|
licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2015 - 16:58 |
|
I understand what Kam is getting at when he talks about balance, and uses tackle as the example. However, I think it's actually more important (for some races) to not worry about balancing their team, but rather to have the skill stack(s) which allow them to excel at what wins them games.
This is for offensively minded teams, where the only thing that really matters is that you can one turn, or pull off an early steal/score and then hold on as attrition catches up to you.
Bash and tweeners do need to strike that balance, they need to deal with other bash, and they need to deal with blodge, and they need to deal with speed. Ignoring any of those will put them at a severe disadvantage should they face a team that excels in one of those areas.
If you look at Skaven you realize they can build one turners almost trivially, they can also build cpomb almost trivially. Do they need both to be successful? Which is more important to them?
Obviously, as with almost all BB questions, the answer is it depends. But on average I would suggest that the one turner (even if not the MA10 freak) is more critical to their final scores in matches than the cpomber. So if you're building up a Skaven team for high TV competitive play, you will be in worse shape the worse shape your gutters are in compared to if you lose your cpomber.
That is the natural strength of skaven is really their gutters, MA9AG4 is just so impressive and difficult for an opponent to deal with, almost no matter the skills you take (hello tentacles!). Like the War Dancer (but you get 4 gutters...) is the key to most WE teams, it sort of doesn't matter what the rest of the team looks like (that is exaggeration) because if you don't have your WDs on the pitch, or built up, you are at a significant disadvantage.
Some rosters can more naturally change their play style depending on the skill ups they get along the way. Dark elfs can wind up very bashy if they land enough doubles on their blitzers. Or they can play like tougher WE if they land enough +AG and +MA. That's not really a choice you make ahead, that's dictated by the dice you get while building. To an extent this is true for any team, but for some teams it is really too expensive TV wise to be able to follow a different path from what is natural for them.
Like a chaos team that keeps on rolling (and taking) +AG and +MA, and even to a degree +ST. Those are not really key to have spammed around the team, because your +ST +MA player is costing you 80k, which happens to be the cost of your kill stack, so you play with him, you play without one killer (for the same TV). Granted, you're not turning down the 7438 beastman, but if you already have one, do you really need another? Again, you're likely taking it, but the opportunity cost in your team is there, and Chaos cannot as easily as elfs or rats, change up their playstyle and be as successful for it. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Conceding v Goblins/...
Search
