Antithesisoftime
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
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 Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 03:27 |
 
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | 1) You can blindly offer every match available and still sit without a game. Dwarves don't seem to have any particularly bad matchups at sub 1200tv that I can think of.
2) You're totally screwed if your opponent gets lucky and removes even a couple of your guys. It's even worse than Lizardmen in this respect, you are so slow that being outnumbered is a virtual death sentance.
3) 1D blocking is pretty reliable, and often necessary.
4) Your AV9 and thick skull mean you're going to go up in players most games, even without mighty blow.
5) Guard goes from a "nice to have" on elf teams to "you're dead without it" on dwarves. Some strange skillups in the first few games leave me finally getting my second guard after game 6.
6) Diving tackle as a double on linemen has been a little underwhelming so far. It may become more useful at higher TV. Guard would have been better in the short term, obviously.
7) Not enough people realize that your troll slayers and runners are AV8. Standard Rat Salat strategy against dwarves is to apply mighty blow liberally to those softer targets in hopes of getting a couple of dwarves off the pitch. This hasn't been observed yet, but probably will happen more as the team advances.
8- Scoring with dwarves is HARD. I have yet to walk the length of the pitch in a cage, and most games my runner has to make at least one dodge. Fortunately, AG3 is better at dodging than I recall. This is likely a result of (a) not enough guard and (b) me being bad at teams without ag4
9) People get mad playing dwarves. My opponents seem to enjoy the games far less than when I am stealing the ball with some AG5 elf. Opponents have left games with 0SPP to show for their hour invested, and probably didn't have much fun. |
1: Anything with Claws can absolutely terrorize dwarves. The following match was my last encounter with a Claw heavy team, and I was lucky to pull off a tie. And I even had the forethought to take an extra Apo in anticipation of some harsh casualties.
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3664834
That's not to say that Claws are the only danger. Even Elves can score 5 casualties against dwarves, as this match proves
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3655163
2: Not entirely. But it definitely changes the way you play as dwarves when you start going down players. Dwarves tend to fall into 2 camps. Those with a bench player, and those without. Having a bench as a dwarf is a double edged sword. Sure, you have a back-up player in case you take some early losses, but at the same time, he's a minimum of 70k towards your TV, and despite his nice skills, that can be a liability.
3: The same can be said of any player with block. Norse tend to 1d block as often as dwarves. But yeah, 1d is reliable 83% of the time to at least push a player, and a single push can be worth a lot for a dwarf team. Actually, I'm more willing to throw a -2d block with dwarves than any other race because they tend to be more reliable than a 1d block for most other races. I'm surprised you didn't mention that.
4: Certainly helps. Often however, against bash heavy teams, you end up with as many players in the out box as your opponent. The finesse teams on the other hand, those tend to break easy and often.
5: Every Dwarf should have guard by his 3rd skill. Exceptions for Troll Slayers who get MB, Tackle, PO in some order of that, but guard and stand firm are definitely numbers 4 and 5. On a lineman, guard should be a first or second skill. You're playing in the trenches, you have to disrupt any attempt by an opponent to control the line.
6: Dodge is a better skill than Diving Tackle on a lineman. Diving Tackle however can be incredibly powerful on a dwarf. Take this game, turn 5 of the first half:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3673335
That said, I think I'm most likely to give my dwarves Jump Up as a first double skill, unless it's a runner, who gets dodge every time.
7: You're absolutely correct here. It's best to target the Troll Slayers as much as you can in hopes of breaking that AV8. Those Slayers are often the most deadly dwarf out there, and has to be dealt with.
On the other hand, taking out a runner forces a dwarf squad to use it's blitzers as ball carriers, which means they aren't blocking, blitzing, or marking. Worse yet, you force a Dwarf Lineman to pick up the ball.
8: Dwarves aren't made to score in 2-3 turns. Often, I'll slowly bludgeon my opponent while shifting the direction of my attack as often as possible. There's a reason most Dwarf scoring drives take 7-8 turns. Don't bother trying to move faster than that unless you get a wide open run to the end zone. Instead, you should take as much ground as you can each turn and work on positioning your men. To be fair, though, Dwarves are much easier to score with at lower TVs
9: All races can get diced, even dwarves. I've been incredibly frustrated in many games with many races for spending entire games earning very little to zero SPP.
And some games, you just have to bite the bullet, deal with the frustration, and ignore the odds
Granted, my example is not a dwarven squad, but it still stands.
This particular game was a story of two halves. Somehow I still managed to win despite only 1 player remaining on the field.
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3628820
But hey, if you want more experience playing against dwarves, I'll be happy to see you on the gamefinder.
One more thing, before I go.
I've found that the Death Roller is a terrible waste of TV. Sure, he's nice when you can afford the bloat for a major, but he'll spend most of the game in the ban box, and if you're lucky, caused one casualty per game. Your Troll Slayers are almost as reliable at taking down the big guys, and despite their lesser durability, will be much more valuable throughout a match.
Now, if you get bribes, the roller is a lot more viable. |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 05:53 |
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Is it worthwhile getting 2 slayers and 2 runners due to their low av? |
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Antithesisoftime
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:01 |
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| footballolb16 wrote: | | Is it worthwhile getting 2 slayers and 2 runners due to their low av? |
It depends on your play style.
If you only run with a single runner, I suggest Block, Kick-off Return, Tackle, Strip Ball with Dodge on any doubles as his first few skills. He is the dwarf you want holding the ball, and on defense, you want to put the ball on the ground with him, so he can swoop in and steal it. Consider Nerves of Steel as an option in the future as well. Pro is another skill worth having.
With only one Troll Slayer, you start off with one fewer frenzy player, which can limit some pushing and surfing strategies. If you still want to consider chain pushes, or extend a surf range, then one of your blitzers will want Frenzy in his first two skills. You'll probably also want to tack Dauntless onto a couple linemen before loading up on guard and mighty blow, simply because you'll have fewer players who can block big men.
Is it worthwhile to have them in pairs? Yes and no. It all boils down to play style though. Same answer goes for the Roller. Your mileage may vary. Some coaches swear by the Death Roller, others hate it. Same goes for keeping a pair of Slayers or Runners.
If you want opinions, I prefer having both Runners and Slayers because it puts a little more movement on the field. In the case of a pair of Runners, I can field Four players with AG3.
Just remember, either style is viable. Just pick the style that's fun for you. |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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Apr 27, 2015 - 06:19 |
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I haven't played much with dwarf but I tended to have some early success but I kept feeling like the slayers and runners just couldn't stay on the field... Part of that is probably my poor positioning / lack of protecting them...
I also feel like Dwarf is not very well-suited to compete at high TV in CRP... In LRB4, Dwarf was probably one of the top races (seemed they were always winning or contending for a major)... In LRB6/CRP, it seems like teams like Orc/Dwarf that are bashy, 9 av, but lack some movement just get destroyed vs mutation-available teams. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:27 |
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| footballolb16 wrote: | | Is it worthwhile getting 2 slayers and 2 runners due to their low av? |
I was going to go Purplechest blackbox style and do the one runner one troll slayer thing. He hasn't stated why he does this to my knowledge, but it's likely a combination of TV control and wanting less AV8.
Instead, I decided to copy Tiny Steel Hammers. Azure used to only have mighty blow on the two Troll Slayers, although it seems he's gone full bash now. That was the plan anyway, skill the two slayers as killers and then just guardspam the linemen.
Pure theorybowl suggests to me that limiting the amount of AV8 is a good idea, but that Troll Slayers are nice and bashy. I've been moving the runner and two blitzers as something of a unit, and haven't yet had an occasion where I haven't had an AG3 handy to pick up the ball.
The runner seems like a necessary evil for Dwarf teams, with his GP skill access giving limited options after block. I figure in a worst case scenario, he can take block, leader, and kick... with kickoff return perhaps being less bad for dwarves than on most teams.
Obviously this is a player you can make very good use of stats and doubles on... I imagine a MA7-8 runner or AG4 blodger would be absolute gold. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 06:52 |
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Dwarf runners are sweet.
Kick, Leader, Kick Off return (yes, it makes sense on dwarfs) and yes - imho Tackle are all good-ok skills to have on a runner. Especially if you play with 1 runner and 2 blitzers and no slayers, Tackle does make some sense.
With block those are 5 skills - legend laurels are quite some SPPs away and chances you rolled a stat up or a double somewhere anyway aint that bad. And any possible stat up (aside AV+ maybe) works on this guy.
Obviously he is the only guy that can handle the ball with some reliability and "speed". So what should be evil about him? A 6/3/3/8 player with Sure Hands and Thick Skull for 80K, what is not to like about it?
On a sidenote: dwarf runners pick up better and more reliable than any other AG3 Sure Hands player i found out, simply because they are dwarfs. Try it yourself, its true. |
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PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
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 Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 10:41 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: |
And deathroller? Really? |
No not really, not for serious winning BB, which I know is what you are asking about. Must use more emoticons! 
But actually, licker has a very good point - if dwarves are so boring and unrewarding to play, why not spice it up a bit, take a non-efficient team, and challenge yourself. Even with the DR they are still competative. |
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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Apr 27, 2015 - 12:07 |
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The deathroller is very useful on (very) high TV against high ST bash teams. I can only repeat this over and over again. And this has nothing to do with dwelfballing.  |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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 Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 12:20 |
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Cough...
...When Rabe says something that the ALWAYS has something to do with dwelfballing...
...Cough |
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MDeLarge
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
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Apr 27, 2015 - 13:13 |
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In my opinion Dorfs are pretty vulnerable when they are being fouling. At least Elves can deal with a few cas against, but when you chase out a pair of Dorfs they start falling like domino pieces. This game probes it |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Apr 27, 2015 - 13:30 |
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So, basically to sum this thread up:
Dwarves are awesome! |
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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Gartch
Joined: Sep 07, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 13:35 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | | 1) You can blindly offer every match available and still sit without a game. Dwarves don't seem to have any particularly bad matchups at sub 1200tv that I can think of. |
I think Dwarves have problem versus ST4 and ST5 players.
At low TV for me the worst mu for Dwarves is versus Undead: the mummies are deadly for dwarves. If Undead coach takes care to not let your slayer approcach mummies, it can be a quagmire, fixing several of your dwarves for each mummies. Even if mummies don't remove dwarves with mighty blow. The regeneration is also a problem.
I also think at TV 1000-1200 versus orc is a difficult match-up for dwarves. The thing is orc is a roster adviced to beginner so most orc teams are coached by beginners but if you face a good coach it's a tough mu imo, because of the ST4 black orcs |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 27, 2015 - 16:23 |
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One of my draws was against Undead, against a team with two block Mummies at sub-1100tv. I honestly can't really think of a nastier team at that TV short of all-marauder killstack pact. I have to say, the dwarves didn't really care. I marked the mummies with a blocker each and just let them absorb the hit every turn.
Orcs might be tough too, but you mark the BOBs with blockers and let the Orc coach burn through his rerolls on skull-bothdowns. Barring those unlucky KOs or casualties, the dwarves can get knocked down every turn. What you don't want is a mummy tying up two or three blockers while the rest of the team swarms your ballcarrier. Thus far we've been able to avoid this situation for the most part. Perhaps this is the "learning positioning" that people are talking about.
It's all very vanilla back-to-basics bloodbowl. The team reminds me of Dark Elves in that they are so reliable, but even moreso with the 1/36 missed dodge factor removed. Of course the flip side of this is that unlike Dark Elves, Dwarves don't really have a plan B.
The biggest issue I have playing this roster is the feeling that advancing players actually isn't doing a lot to increase my chances of winning games. Dwarves seem to be perfectly sweetspotted right out of the box at 1000TV. This isn't a plus in my book. |
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Gartch
Joined: Sep 07, 2012
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Apr 27, 2015 - 16:42 |
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That's why I said "good coach", you are Super Star, almost Legends, so for me good coach vs you is legend or good superstar (not me for example:) )
I checked your matchs, you played 2 Undead teams, there were both coached by rookie (according to fumbbl ranking system)  and still one of them managed to get a tie.
And of course if Undead coach let you to isolate his mummies and only marking one dwarf it's not good for undead. The undead coach have to try as you said to tying up 2 to 3 players. If you are better than your opponent you can avoid it. But versus a coach of your level it would not work I think:)
But if your point is to say dwarves are very good at low TV I agree, my post was just for saying that if you want to practice hard mu for dwarves, you probably have to look toward undead, orcs and other rosters with ST4 players. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2015 - 17:25 |
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| Gartch wrote: | | I checked your matchs, you played 2 Undead teams, there were both coached by rookie (according to fumbbl ranking system) and still one of them managed to get a tie. |
This is a pretty good observation. Firstly, these dwarves highlighted literally every team that were eligible to play them, and the only takers were, for the most part, lower skill coaches. This is probably the only team I have ever blindly offered matches to any opponent within TV range, really not caring whom I played. It's somewhat indicative of the reputation dwarves have that two of the six matches were accepted by rookie coaches playing undead teams, one with the nightmare rookie team scenario of bringing two block mummies to the table. I sure as heck don't go out of my way to play either dwarves or undead with TV1000 teams, and it's pretty clear most experienced coaches, including some of the more vocal pick-shamers don't either.
And, your point about the tie is valid as well. I'm fairly confident that with most races I could have fairly easily overcome playing with 9 players to win the game, but given the limitations of MA4-6 players who can't dodge, there was nothing I could do to ensure the win. In fact, I believe I settled for the tie, knowing that I simply did not have time to score again. This probably would not have happened if I was playing a team with more speed, and it was a little frustrating not being able to outplay my opponent for the win.
This could very well be my inexperience with dwarves, but I think it's also an inherent issue with playing the game's slowest roster. Even Khemri would at least have a chance to push for a win, but with dwarves it was a virtual mathematical impossibility. |
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