| Poll |
| What skill should he learn? |
| Strong Arm |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
| Naughty Blow |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
| Guard |
|
27% |
[ 8 ] |
| Pie |
|
17% |
[ 5 ] |
| Nurgle Rot |
|
20% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 29 |
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WolfyDan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 09:56 |
 
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| licker wrote: | | I'm fine with people continuing to use them, and waste TV taking doubles or stats on them though. As Forrest Gump said, 'It's ok Jenny, I'll raise the AIDs baby.' |
So your argument that HE throwers with +ST are useless is because people that take them are mentally disabled? |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 15:42 |
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| WolfyDan wrote: | | licker wrote: | | I'm fine with people continuing to use them, and waste TV taking doubles or stats on them though. As Forrest Gump said, 'It's ok Jenny, I'll raise the AIDs baby.' |
So your argument that HE throwers with +ST are useless is because people that take them are mentally disabled? |
Correct. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 15:48 |
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This was my first thought, but considering it's a R team he can live with that bloat. |
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pubstar
Joined: Jun 13, 2009
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 16:58 |
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I don't understand why everybody is so anti-thrower. I understand that having a thrower developed as a thrower is often a waste of TV, but you don't have to develop them that way. I think it's fine to develop one as a ball carrier who can throw a pass when needed.
Sure, you are paying 20k for pass (and in this case, safe throw), which is only occasionally useful if you are employing a running game first and only pass as a last resort. However, 20k is just a single skill of bloat, and the pass skill actually is useful on occasion, so it's not even a full 20k of bloat. 10k maybe, maybe 15k if we're trying to get overly granular.
Look at how this particular thrower is developed: +ST, sure hands, block (he took block, by the way, if anybody still cares about the original poster). That's a fine ball carrier.
The idea that a player that is overcosted by less than 1 skill is 'useless' seems utterly mad. Marginally inefficient, yes, but surely not useless. |
_________________
DOTP!
3DB Highlander!
Fill the Box Grid! |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:00 |
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| pubstar wrote: |
The idea that a player that is overcosted by less than 1 skill is 'useless' seems utterly mad. Marginally inefficient, yes, but surely not useless. |
But this is the internet, land of extreme opinions and hyperbole! |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:09 |
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| pubstar wrote: | I don't understand why everybody is so anti-thrower. I understand that having a thrower developed as a thrower is often a waste of TV, but you don't have to develop them that way. I think it's fine to develop one as a ball carrier who can throw a pass when needed.
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The point is that a MA 6 ball carrier sucks when you can have a MA 8 one. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:10 |
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You know it's not really about what skills you can or can't take on a thrower.
It's about the player that they are nominally replacing on the roster.
Yeah yeah, you say they replace a lineman, but in reality they don't, they replace an actual honest to goodness good player (other than on WE, where they replace a lineman, but WE linemen are already so good I don't know why you'd replace them anyway).
It's been said many times (for elfs, it's not always true for other rosters), speed is much more valuable on your ball carrier than any other possible skill, including +ST, and arguably +AG (but that one is closer, and more skill dependent). There's a reason why gutters are the easiest player in the game to score with out of the box.
But maybe I should just quote the new go to line.
Learn to play better.
Then you won't waste your time with project players like +ST throwers. Unless you're playing for fluff. In which case, knock yourself out and enjoy the hell out of whatever build you want to enjoy. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:16 |
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I did consider writing that I found WolfyDans arguments more convincing but then he bothered to write an actual sentence.
Now it's pretty much a toss up again.
As far as I followed the conversation surprisingly it seems to be the case that taking throwers does have value. But people who do take throwers are mentally disabled.
I suppose being a mentally disabled person isn't something to break a sweat over, yet it seems a rather unattractive attribute to obtain when you don't possess it.
But.. you do not obtain it from taking a thrower, you are already it when you buy one. So it is just about a verification of an already existing condition.
Ergo:
It is fine to take a thrower, because if you do take one, you were already mentally disabled BEFORE you took it. So nothing really changes. Also, as WolfyDan laid out in great detail, they are useful.
(Apply this assessment only based on high strength throwers depending on what you draw from the dialogue.)
EDIT: Now licker already wrote more and the assessment is already obsolete again. 
Can't wait for WolfyDans epic response..
I guess I should also mention that I do recognize what thread Licker has probably been referring to earlier because I started it. But just to make sure I'll maybe link it here because I do not really remember what his opinion was. And also so that WolfyDan has the ability to take a closer look at Lickers thoughts. I think
this is the thread Licker was referring to. |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %27, %2015 - %17:%May; edited 4 times in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:27 |
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+ST on an elf roster is great.
Throwers on elf rosters are useless.
But, if you are going to play with one, then you might as well build them as an actual thrower. Thus the HE thrower is actually a better one to take only because safe throw as a free skill has some value, since it's otherwise a skill you'd probably never take.
However, what skills do you really covet on a player who's job it is to retrieve the ball and then pass it up to a scoring threat?
It's clearly not +ST.
Imagine if this team had not used the thrower, but rather used a catcher or blitzer in his place.
Now you have a +ST catcher or blizter! Wow, that's a (potentially) great player. Even greater now that you have a double to throw on him too. Good lord, you'd prefer a +ST thrower with strong arm (or skipped) over a +ST/MB blitzer/catcher?
+ST thrower?
Useless. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:44 |
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It's a +ST/MB Thrower instead of a +ST/MB Lino. Don't be disingenuous. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:51 |
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Licker, now I see why your response confused me. In the skaven thread you explained that people should do use a thrower.
Oh well, I suppose if I would use a) a skaven thrower and b) not just for Leader, there would be little point in getting +ST on him because he has great need in obtaining skills that turn him into a decent enough passer to actually interact with the team.
With the Elves on the other hand I'm thinking this:
The passer is as good of a carrier as pretty much anyone.
St4 makes him just a regular elf carrier who happens to be able to throw passes and also happens to not totally suck at it.
So.. if I would look at such a guy I envision kind of the equivalent to a sturdy artillery that can't be damaged. It's essentially walking around, stalling, with the ball on it as some sort of super tank, ready to just toss it to somebody else when things get dicey.
Obviously as could probably gather from the other thread, I totally agree with you that speed and agility are absolutely preferable on a carrier.
Yet the guy does have a st4 thrower already, there is no point in lamenting broken eggs and I think it's a good player, especially when he happens to make it to Blodge.
Honestly, I think although I don't really disagree with anything you said Licker, I'd take the +st too.
It's probably the weakest +st to have on an elvish team: On any other player you'd take it for its active effect, while on a passer you essentially only take it for the passive effect and that is neglectable half of the game (ie. when you don't carry).
Yet it's still just completely worth it. You have an unstoppable force that can dodge, block, move and pass and provides your elvish team with something it dearly needs: More strength. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 17:58 |
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I just like having assistless 2d6 blocks against ST3 but I guess that's tactically useless. |
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Winni
Joined: Jan 14, 2006
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 18:02 |
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All the guy needs is Accurate, Blodge, Tackle and Sure Hands and you have an excellent ball carrier/passer AND saftey. The problem is the double he rolled now, he doesnt really need it. |
_________________
Spreading the truth about Wood Elves since shortly. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 18:03 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | I just like having assistless 2d6 blocks against ST3 but I guess that's tactically useless. |
Well, my experience with carriers is that.. I want to avoid using them for blitzing if I can because I might get stuck somewhere on a both down having to dodge back to secure my position, or worse roll a d-skull in the first place.
It's not likely going to happen but.. it's always nicer to just have all the other players do the work and have THEM be involved in the fatal turnovers rather than the one player who does carry and who potentially can save my day even after a d-skull occured. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
May 27, 2015 - 18:08 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | I just like having assistless 2d6 blocks against ST3 but I guess that's tactically useless. |
Well, my experience with carriers is that.. I want to avoid using them for blitzing if I can because I might get stuck somewhere on a both down having to dodge back to secure my position, or worse roll a d-skull in the first place.
It's not likely going to happen but.. it's always nicer to just have all the other players do the work and have THEM be involved in the fatal turnovers rather than the one player who does carry and who can potentially can save my day even after a d-skull occured. |
Just in general, not as a ball carrier. I like not having to commit an assist to a blitz when I blitz. Also, it makes ST4 players a viable blitz target if you already have an assist in place. On defense having a few options of people to blitz with is great and I'm not going to look at who exactly has ST4 by position as long as they have Block to go with it.
It's one of the reasons, in addition to skill access I think Chaos is actually a great team - that ST4 blitz on demand allows your other players to do their thing on the turn.
Additionally, A surehanded thrower with pass is going to be your OTTD ball fetcher/passer. I want to use the players according to skills and stats, regardless of position name. It's not like a player only has to serve one purpose - there are two halves to blood bowl  |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %27, %2015 - %18:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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