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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 01:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello Fummblers,

I have a puzzle I hope you can solve for me.

Many players avoid taking low AV players on their team as they are seen as a liability. Think Dwarves with just 1 runner and 1 or 0 slayers or Dark Elves without runners or witch elves or Undead with zombies but not skeletons.

BUT when coaches who have these players ask on FUMMBL to help choose between MA and AV, the answer is almost always to take the MA.

So my question is, why is +MA always preferred when selecting skills while +AV is preferred when selecting players in the team to start with?

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 01:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Original +AV = ~10k
Skillup +AV = 30k
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 01:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
So my question is, why is +MA always preferred when selecting skills while +AV is preferred when selecting players in the team to start with?


I have been wondering about this myself...
In practize I still find myself rarely choosing +av... but also +ma isn't really high priority for me.

I guess +ma is something you want some players to spike at. +av is more of a spam skill, ie.. an av7 is rather a structural weakness in an av8 team.
As for advancing single players +av has to compete against other protective skills such as Block and Dodge, they are simply better. Then there can be arguments made for a lot of other skills that directly or indirectly contribute better for survivability, stuff you won't necessarily have on default.

I also think the higher you want to develop a team the better it is to start with a good stat line, which just happens to include av.

As for what other coaches really think with this dogma, I'm not sure of. But ok, in practice there are really few cases where it would make some sense to take av over ma...
Bazakastine



Joined: Mar 21, 2014

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 02:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it comes down to movement being a stat that matters on the individual level while armor matters on the team level. If you have 2 runners on a dwarf team and increase one of their AV's to 9 it just makes the other one a bigger target as getting any player off the pitch is a win for your opponent. Therefore the minimum armor value across your whole team is what is important as that player will be the target of attrition blitzes. For movement the single highest value is what is important as it increases your tactical options.

Since you can increase your max movement on a team with a single skill up it becomes valuable. To increase your min armor you have to make a conscious decision to avoid certain player types.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 02:03 Reply with quote Back to top

fidius wrote:
Original +AV = ~10k
Skillup +AV = 30k


yeah, that's probably a big part of it...
...although if its about starting lets say 7347 vs 6348 it's still kind of the same question... it's cheaper but.. if you strictly believe ma would be better than av it shouldn't matter at all what it costs..
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 02:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:

So my question is, why is +MA always preferred when selecting skills while +AV is preferred when selecting players in the team to start with?

1) Players of a starting team are going to meet few or no damage skills in the first games, after a while they face Claw more often and the +AV is wasted, unlike +MA;
2) +MA is something any player will generally use more often than +AV, especially if he's a ball carrier/runner/catcher/one turner.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 02:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Bazakastine wrote:
I think it comes down to movement being a stat that matters on the individual level while armor matters on the team level. If you have 2 runners on a dwarf team and increase one of their AV's to 9 it just makes the other one a bigger target as getting any player off the pitch is a win for your opponent.


Although that's basically the same as what I said, I'm not sure I 100% agree with that last sentence. I'd argue that it is in fact very useful for the runner to catch up with the rest, if I just have to protect one runner instead of 2 my life is already a bit easier.
But the problem is, since it is a runner, it is a top speed player. And I don't see myself turning movement down on a top speed player.
Then it is often like that with lower av players as it gets naturally discarded for speed.
The only exception I could currently think of would be assasins. They have lower av and aren't the only option to skill for ma+. Yet they happen to have shadowing of all players, ie yet another reason to discard av...
I guess that leaves Witch Elves... Yeah I think... Witch elves also already start with nice protective base skills.. jump up makes them foul targets... frenzy makes the vulnerable... so yeah.. I think witch elves I could recommend +av on..
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 02:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Hello Fummblers,

I have a puzzle I hope you can solve for me.

Many players avoid taking low AV players on their team as they are seen as a liability. Think Dwarves with just 1 runner and 1 or 0 slayers or Dark Elves without runners or witch elves or Undead with zombies but not skeletons.

BUT when coaches who have these players ask on FUMMBL to help choose between MA and AV, the answer is almost always to take the MA.

So my question is, why is +MA always preferred when selecting skills while +AV is preferred when selecting players in the team to start with?


I think it comes down to people fearing claw and not fearing fouls when disregarding +AV. Now that I think about my players on all my teams, +AV might be worth it on some players with 6 or 7 movement and Piling On and a niggling, but if its doubles I'm taking Jump Up, no doubt.

+MA, you know what you're getting and maybe on players going from MA 5 to MA 6 (bar Dwarven Blitzers) you might consider the +AV or a stock skill.
C3I2



Joined: Feb 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 02:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I agree with W on WEs if it was not for the forced GFIs on frenzy, then there is the Q of reaching everywhere for surfs... and if its really early in the team it is your scorer. Hence they get AV only if they have several skills already, especially with MB or MB/PO already.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 03:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Hello Fummblers,

I have a puzzle I hope you can solve for me.

Many players avoid taking low AV players on their team as they are seen as a liability. Think Dwarves with just 1 runner and 1 or 0 slayers or Dark Elves without runners or witch elves or Undead with zombies but not skeletons.

BUT when coaches who have these players ask on FUMMBL to help choose between MA and AV, the answer is almost always to take the MA.

So my question is, why is +MA always preferred when selecting skills while +AV is preferred when selecting players in the team to start with?


Because you get the AV for free. But the question is really would you prefer AV and 10k extra TV or a normal skill. Frequently on rosters that have fast positionals they will eschew the extra MA on a lineman to take block or dodge or whatever skill helps that player do their job more.

There are rosters which cause exceptions, like zons, since every one is MA6. And there are dwarfs where going to AV10 may be better than MA5 on the blockers, a lot depends on the environment your team plays in.

Otherwise MA always works, AV only matters if you get knocked down. So on your fodder it may make sense, but not likely over giving a basic skill. On positionals, MA is almost always better since they are almost always faster than linemen. The gains you get for MA going to 7, 8, 9 are huge by comparison of taking your AV up a notch.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 04:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I've never turned down +AV on Gnome linemen. A couple +AV Gnome linos and a Cannon will really beef up a starting LOS and give you a good jump start on winning the attrition war even when kicking.

>.<

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2015 - 07:27 Reply with quote Back to top

+MA makes a better *player*. They can do more stuff. +AV gives exactly zero new abilities.

Also +AV has no direct in-game effect -- its effect is indirect and often not even noticed. I've started taking +AV on LOS Norse and Elfs as an experiment, but it's one of those things I'll never know if it's working because I usually can't be bothered to go back into the game record to see if the AV8 saved them or not. If they stay on the pitch I just figure I got lucky, and if they leave I think, crap, lotta good that AV did.

If you're going to notice +AV, you're going to notice it in clumps. As in, man, my Elf team loses a Lino a game. My Darks lose half that. I love the AV!
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