| Poll |
| Is CLAWPOMB really a problem? |
| Yes, absolutley |
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55% |
[ 464 ] |
| No, Chaos Dwarfs Disagree |
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20% |
[ 174 ] |
| Still Haven't Decided |
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8% |
[ 75 ] |
| Pie! |
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15% |
[ 127 ] |
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| Total Votes : 840 |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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 Posted:
May 05, 2016 - 01:42 |
 
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| licker wrote: | | Wins matter most in what now? |
Wins matter more in (league) championships, (meta) titles or (elimination) tournaments, than in random B games. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
May 05, 2016 - 01:56 |
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| licker wrote: | | [T]he issue with (most) FUMBBL tournaments is that all the games required to build the team happen outside of the tournament, so the actual ability to get those games matters, and the time and effort of all the coaches who aren't building their teams for tournaments matters as well. |
Agreed, but I'm not sure what's the issue there. It looks more like a feature than a bug to me.
I really hope this won't become a "CPOMB's not doing the killing, coaches are" kind of argument.
| licker wrote: | | The problem with using Majors results is that it's not a very large data set, and it covers different 'eras' of FUMBBL and even some teams which were built under completely different rules. |
The last part might require some clarification.
We should expect that major results represent major results quite well, and that they provide a good sample of the heaviest teams around. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
May 05, 2016 - 02:20 |
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| licker wrote: | | My contention is that cpomb as a skill stack is fine. |
Yes, and if I recall correctly, your solution is that we nerf the skill access for certain teams, which has no effect on Chorfs. Even if we had the right number of Chorf cpomb in B, we could expect that number to grow once that nerf appears.
My contentions would be that: the killstack doesn't exist in a vacuum, the skillset price is *way* too low; PO on injury is insane; an AV7 treeman is absurd; and a bit more than 1/4 to *injure* an AV7 guy with POMB creates lots of stress on non-regenerating teams, considering the actual winnings expectations. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
May 05, 2016 - 02:28 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | licker wrote: | | My contention is that cpomb as a skill stack is fine. |
Yes, and if I recall correctly, your solution is that we nerf the skill access for certain teams, which has no effect on Chorfs. Even if we had the right number of Chorf cpomb in B, we could expect that number to grow once that nerf appears.
My contentions would be that: the killstack doesn't exist in a vacuum, the skillset price is *way* too low; PO on injury is insane; an AV7 treeman is absurd; and a bit more than 1/4 to *injure* an AV7 guy with POMB creates lots of stress on non-regenerating teams, considering the actual winnings expectations. |
Yep, if you want to 'fix' CD you need to do something other than nerf cpomb which is not the motor that actually drives them.
To win games anyway.
But my 'solution' is simply to address an imbalance in diversity in open ladder type metas, not to reduce/remove a skill stack which isn't 'broken'. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 05, 2016 - 07:36 |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
May 05, 2016 - 08:15 |
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I am considering the idea of fixing the meta with inducements. The premise is that attrition is needed, and killstack needs to deliver that. This results in cpomb spam teams dominating the high TV matches, with a few agility teams doing wonders on the short term, but fall back on the long run.
No attempt will change the attrition without drastic redesign of the game.
So we need cpomb to keep teams in check, but we have got cpomb only at the top of the TV.
Solution: Make / Price inducement that protects / helps the weaker team.
Pricing could solve the issue of competitiveness. If there would be decently priced inducements beyond wizard...
If wandering apothecary would cost 50k not 100k, that would help on the protection side. I could argue that allowing more than 1 wandering apothecary could also help.
Also i would not mind a very expensive inducement that flat out counters cpomb, thus punishing the extreme builds.
That way tweener teams at middle TV could both survive, and be competitive against cpomb teams.
I would now advocate the latter option, as cpomb should kill whatever is high TV, but should not flat out massacre an already decimated team. (aka recovery game solved by inducement.)
This would also deliver the 3rd big archetype what is needed for more interesting meta. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 20:12 |
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Something along those lines
"Soft pads, pitch, and pacific referee - at least 400k
The following skills do not work this match: Mighty Blow, Piling On, Claw, Dirty Player, Sneaky Git, Chainsaw, Stab." |
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Diddyboy
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 21:27 |
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https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3800919
One player who ended the game. This game shows very well why the killstackcombo has to change. Its just silly and takes all the fun out of the game. If you try to foul a pile player then its a high chance you lose another player instead with to low chance of taking the pile out. Give back +2+2 dirty player so we can get a proper boot to try to even the odds abit |
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DeathJester74
Joined: Oct 11, 2015
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 22:25 |
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| Diddyboy wrote: | https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3800919
One player who ended the game. This game shows very well why the killstackcombo has to change. Its just silly and takes all the fun out of the game. If you try to foul a pile player then its a high chance you lose another player instead with to low chance of taking the pile out. Give back +2+2 dirty player so we can get a proper boot to try to even the odds abit |
Or you could learn to play and then it won't be such a big deal!! Weakling!!! |
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Wuhan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 22:34 |
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Give back +2+2 dirty player so we can get a proper boot to try to even the odds abit
Yarr! What he said!
Who ever did the fouling nerf went quite overboard.
#1 Player doing the foul doesn't add +1 for his own assist. (i agree with, how does 1 player give an assist to himself?)
#2 Get the Ref is now a 2+ bribe instead of a whole half of unmitigated boot stompin' (don't agree with, but wouldn't argue against. It was good to have Fan factor to win that roll, now even Fan factor is like who cares if you have it.)
#3 Argue the call on a 6+ has been completely removed. (Bummer, I liked being a lucker, and rubbin' the boot in their face.)
#4 The DP has been Nerfed from a +2 armor or injury, to a +1 armor or injury. (This is bad, no more Pro elf teams destroying Khemri, or halflings teams killing chaos. It changes the whole nature of the game. And it sucks so much more because of clawpomb gives a RR to Injury! Where as before PO was just a RR to armor, or a +Strength to armor break.)
#5 No more (I got my eye on you.) The first boot was almost assured. Sometime during the game someone would do the hulk hogan leg drop. Because it was a 2+ to avoid the first foul, and a 4+ to avoid the second foul. Now it's a flat 33% all the time. 1/6 (doubles) for the armor break, 1/6 for the injury roll. Many games players go unfouled. And the dude (Wuhan) does not abide!
#6 Get the Ref is now on a 2 of 2d6 (2.77%), where as before it was on a 3 of 2d6. (5.55%)
#7 (Wuhan's Rant) It used to be that Bloodbowl was "Updated" with a new Living Rulebook every 1-2 years. And now no one is "Improving" it. Not that we fans don't try, we just can't agree on what toppings we want on our pizza, with any kind of definitive authority. The lack of "updates" (or Editions) make this ever changing "new" game into a static one that loses appeal over time. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 22:35 |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 23:18 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Funny how people say they they won't play on Fumbbl because the community is horrible. I wonder why they'd say that. |
Because I'm not around anymore? |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 23:34 |
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| koadah wrote: | In that case you are not trying to fix the 'problem' just reduce our chances of meeting it.
You would probably be doing it in a way that restricts people's choice. That would be another disincentive to play for some. Christer wouldn't do that anyway.
The cure could be worse than the original condition. |
If you read more carefully you'd see that I don't agree that cpomb is a problem.
The problem is the rosters which can spam it trivially in an open division environment.
Does anyone really complain about cpomb in leagues? Well I'm sure some will complain about it anywhere, but is it largely an issue in leagues?
No, again, this could be because competitive cpomb teams don't spam it since it's not useful to actually winning at a higher rate, it could be because leagues legislate it out in some way.
But generally the only complaints about cpomb stem from people who want to play high TV B and not run into it every 2nd or 3rd game.
It's not really an issue of it being OP, it's an issue of it warping the metas that allow it. My solution is not to remove it, merely to make it more difficult for these M rosters to spam. This is not so different from past editions where kill stack was rare because it was difficult to roll up the required skills on any player.
The issue is really with S access on chaos/Pact/nurgle. No one is worried about Skaven or Necro because while they can get the kill stack it's not easy for them to manage. CD are a bit of an issue because it's just one double on a blocker, but frankly CD aren't problematic because of cpomb, they just have so many other advantages they'd be problematic without it, and the CD teams I have run without claw, or with only one claw have still been brutal teams to face, much as simple dwarfs can be brutal to face after they have added enough guard and MB.
Oh, and no one cares about underworld, they simply lose their players too quickly, this is sort of the same check you have on Skaven as well, though Skaven are a crazy team in that they can easily make natural one turners and cpomb killers. Just that they tend to have a shorter life span, and then more difficulty reattaining those players.
Contrast to Chaos/Pact/Nurgle who just need to take normal skills to quickly and easily rebuild their killers. They are the short cut teams which get spammed because of their idiotic simplicity. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 23:35 |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
May 07, 2016 - 23:36 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Funny how people say they they won't play on Fumbbl because the community is horrible. I wonder why they'd say that. |
You give DeathJester way to much "cred" man. Every "community" has a few DeathJesters running around. |
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