FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

buuface

Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 06:31

If the bank rule basically means Bash teams are more likely to buy inducements rather than have a slightly bloated TV, I dont really see the problem. It's not perfect but it WOULD lead to the longevity of finesse teams in multi-tier leagues like Orca Cola because they would be able to buy extra Apos.

SWL has to enforce a mix of teams to make sure not everyone takes chaos and nurgle - I guess the idea is that this wouldn't need to happen with the bank rule applied because people would be less put off taking finesse teams.

At any rate it would be nice to have the option for this in the league rules customization

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 06:47

buuface wrote:

If the bank rule basically means Bash teams are more likely to buy inducements rather than have a slightly bloated TV, I dont really see the problem. It's not perfect but it WOULD lead to the longevity of finesse teams in multi-tier leagues like Orca Cola because they would be able to buy extra Apos.

SWL has to enforce a mix of teams to make sure not everyone takes chaos and nurgle - I guess the idea is that this wouldn't need to happen with the bank rule applied because people would be less put off taking finesse teams.

At any rate it would be nice to have the option for this in the league rules customization

No it wouldn't at all. As if a finesse team can have a bank they need it more. So for a finesse team to lose money due to the bank rule is crippling.

Also with a multi tier league you have seasons where you push and seasons where you build. During the building seasons you would want to save up your money.

Bank rule in a multi tier league would cripple finesse teams, not help them due to hindering bash teams.

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 06:52

harvestmouse wrote:

SWL has to enforce a mix of teams to make sure not everyone takes chaos and nurgle - I guess the idea is that this wouldn't need to happen with the bank rule applied because people would be less put off taking finesse teams.

This also isn't correct. SWL used to use the paper/scissors/rock format to maintain balance. However they changed to (I think) 3 max of any one race.

This isn't because everyone would take bash, but to maintain a healthy balanced environment. If everybody took finesse, it'd be equally unhealthy.

garyt1

Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 07:40

Sounds like the guy left from a misunderstanding of the bank impact if he thinks of it the same way as Buuface.

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ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 07:42

buuface wrote:

If the bank rule basically means Bash teams are more likely to buy inducements rather than have a slightly bloated TV, I dont really see the problem. It's not perfect but it WOULD lead to the longevity of finesse teams in multi-tier leagues like Orca Cola because they would be able to buy extra Apos.

That would be the case in a perpetual division - in a scheduled league where you can tell the TV of your next opponents, a team could simply either let their treasury grow to the point where the addition to their TV was either negligible or gave away a babe at most, or simply buy and fire/discard linos/rerolls/cheerleaders until they weren't giving away inducements if necessary.

As much as anyone might think the current status quo is unrealistic/unfluffy, that state of affairs would be utterly tragic by comparison in my opinion. It would also, in all likelihood, become an inevitability for regen teams.

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buuface

Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 07:55

harvestmouse wrote:

This isn't because everyone would take bash, but to maintain a healthy balanced environment. If everybody took finesse, it'd be equally unhealthy.

That's basically the same thing as 'not allowing too much bash'. Well i, at least, have never seen a league dominated by too many finesse teams.

ben_awesome

Joined: May 11, 2016

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 08:08

I think what buuface tried to get across is that if you had a bash team that had to 'burn' its cash resources they could well do so by buying additional inducements for the game.

This would then put their tv up for that match and the opposing finesse team could for example then hire extra apo's.

It's actually quite a good idea, whilst injuring lots of players does help your team in the league, seriously injuring or killing lots of your opponents does actually hand an advantage to your opponents next opponent, so you may wnat them to hire extra apo's.

Obviously the system (any system) would be open to abuse whether from the sweetspot, or the hiring and firing etc.

buuface

Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 08:09

garyt1 wrote:

Sounds like the guy left from a misunderstanding of the bank impact if he thinks of it the same way as Buuface.

i'm just trying to form my own opinion from both sides of the argument and my conversations with him. I'm quite new to the whole concept myself

To the idea that agile teams get the worst from the bank rule because they need to save money more - but when do agility teams in the top tiers of leagues ever have more than 200k anyway?

Just look at the SWL premiership

Lizards - 1.6m
WanjaWarriors - Orcs - 850k
Nercros 560k
Dorf 1 460k
Dorf 2 480 k

Pro Elves 220k - (3 loners)
High Elves 180k - (5 players missing next game)
Delves 70k

It least with the bank rule they are brought down to an even playing field. Agility teams getting an extra apo every two games from opponent inducements would mean they suffer less attrition and be more likely to have the 200k they need for emergencies

buuface

Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 08:16

keggiemckill wrote:

I haven't read the 5 pages, but honestly think your friend is an idiot. If he is that "skilled" it shouldn't matter what the other player has in the bank. I "quotationed" skilleD, because he cant be that skilled to complain about something so petty. I'm sorry to sound insulting, but its my opinion.

Keggie your opinion is based on the fact that you think it's a 'petty' issue. I would argue -that the fact that agility teams can't stay at the top of leagues for more than 2-3 seasons where as bash teams can and do, is not petty.

BTW my friend is overwhelmingly a bash player, so that this argument is based on his bitterness at getting his elves pombed to death does not hold water either

buuface

Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 08:53

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

As much as anyone might think the current status quo is unrealistic/unfluffy, that state of affairs would be utterly tragic by comparison in my opinion. It would also, in all likelihood, become an inevitability for regen teams.

If indeed Orca Cola, which afaik the biggest cyanide private league - do indeed adopt this rule - i guess we will have a live view of how well it works. Tragic or not it will be interesting to observe.

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 08:58

buuface wrote:

harvestmouse wrote:

This isn't because everyone would take bash, but to maintain a healthy balanced environment. If everybody took finesse, it'd be equally unhealthy.

That's basically the same thing as 'not allowing too much bash'. Well i, at least, have never seen a league dominated by too many finesse teams.

No, not at all. I was an SWL admin. When the rock/paper/scissors format existed scissors tended to be the least popular. Only really Lizards from the scissor side were picked from choice (there were still racial limitations).

With the 3 race max rule Slann, Skaven and Dark Elves and even High Elves were among the most popular races at the start.

Sure the big hitting Chaos teams were also very popular but it's not just about that. It is about diversity. The game was designed to have diversity and that's how it should be played.

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 09:00

buuface wrote:

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

As much as anyone might think the current status quo is unrealistic/unfluffy, that state of affairs would be utterly tragic by comparison in my opinion. It would also, in all likelihood, become an inevitability for regen teams.

If indeed Orca Cola, which afaik the biggest cyanide private league - do indeed adopt this rule - i guess we will have a live view of how well it works. Tragic or not it will be interesting to observe.

If they're on BB2 they have no choice I believe. If they're on BB1 then they have no choice again (it ain't implemented).

buuface

Joined: Apr 23, 2014

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 09:02

garyt1 wrote:

buuface wrote:

He says this overall balances the game better for long-term league play and prevents the bash heavy teams from amassing huge amounts of money and maintaining dominance season after season where agility teams struggle struggle to remain competitive for more than one or two season before crashing due to injuries and lack of funds.

Going back to the OP before MattDakka and Arktoris rant at each other we should consider there is a reason given here for why some folks have left FUMBBL to play BB elsewhere. I say folks as I doubt it is a one off.

Clearly this is someone who uses agility or hybrid teams and has seen an issue with bash teams dominating a league, or maybe open environment. If a league I wonder what example is he using for this issue? Did he play in a league here?

It could also be someone on Cyanide extolling the virtues of the rule but maybe not.

Hi Gary. Fear not, my friend is not working for cyanide lol. He wasn't here for a long time and I've been trying to tell him that fumbbl has a better community (less whiners, less abusers, higher level of competition generally) than cyanide. While here he played in SWL (fringe), ranked and blackbox for about a year. But his main thing is league play. My guess is he only really has enough time to join one proper league - and ultimately has chosen OCC instead of one of fumbbl leagues for the reasons i stated

I have no idea whether, or how many other players have migrated or stayed with cyanide for this reason.

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 09:05

buuface wrote:

garyt1 wrote:

Sounds like the guy left from a misunderstanding of the bank impact if he thinks of it the same way as Buuface.

i'm just trying to form my own opinion from both sides of the argument and my conversations with him. I'm quite new to the whole concept myself

Pro Elves 220k - (3 loners)

Ok let's take this team. For me playing like this is unacceptable (in a normal environment) and why I wouldn't be opposed to a bank rule in MM divisions.

However if there was a bank rule they have 20k wiped away. I'm guessing they may be inclined to save a bit more before buying players (I'm guessing they want a bank to replace catchers or blitzers that die).

The other point you have to consider is where they are in their League. Let's say they're mid table with 2 games to play. They aren't going up, they aren't going down. What's the intuitive thing to do? It's not put everything into winning those last 2 games; it's to prepare for a push the next season. Lighter teams cannot continually push season after season in a divisional league.

They need rebuilding seasons, which means writing off dead rubber games to gain money to rebuild. That's pretty much how light teams work in Leagues. The bank would seriously inhibit rebuilding league teams.

Yes......I know I've contradicted myself, but I think dead end games in a league are an exception.

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Jul 26, 2016 - 17:08

Bank rule for BB2 is 150k anyway. I have no idea why you are talking about 200k unless as a meaningless hypothetical.

Let's make the bank rule 500k, then no one would care about it.

Other than in BB2 where the horrific inducement phase would allow for insane amounts of stupidity.

I also fail to see the tangible advantage these high cash bash teams enjoy. So they can rebuild easily? They already don't take as much attrition as lower AV teams. They sit on a ton of cash that does exactly nothing.

Bank rule at fumbbl would be purely cosmetic.