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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 00:28 Reply with quote Back to top

FTJUK wrote:
A potential solution could be for it to be written into the programme to end turns immediately after four minutes as per Cyanide.


BINGO

the timeout button should be used to *override* the default turnover, rather than induce enforcement.

Actively having to push the button to enforce the rule triggers venom from narcissists.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 00:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Frankly, if your opponent leaves the game for any reason without closing the client and you time them out, it's not on you.

So, if you have to leave to deal with something, close the client.

If you're playing Desultory anyway, if you're playing anyone else probably just saying 'brb' will mean you're fine.

Also, this really is a complete and utter non issue for 99.99% of players. If you are one of the 0.01% who has an issue with timing out your opponent, then you are simply an ass.

Which is your right to be one of course.
Lorebass



Joined: Jun 25, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 00:55
FUMBBL Staff
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My personal opinion is that if someone gives a real life reason they have to be away or warns about it... don't time them out. If they are afk for 15 minutes I might consider it part of the disconnection clause in the rules.

If they purposefully afk or wait 3 minutes and 50 seconds before they start playing then they are a dick. As well as anyone who doesn't at least give warning that "if you take forever again next turn with no reason, I will time you out" and times you out: they are a dick.

This is just my opinion of the people that do things. As said what we do and evidence given to us (screenshots, inviting admins TO the game) will affect admin rulings.

IMO real life is more important than games and so is having an excellent community where we understand things happen is also important.

So, for me at least. Don't be a dick. Give warning and if you cannot play for an hour then do not start a game. If you personally suffer in life from a lot of other people calling you anything between "a jerk" or worse then well... Try to be more understanding online. We don't know who you are so you can be anyone you want to be!!


And also, if there was a 4 minute automatic time-out I wouldn't be able to play on this site. Stuff happens, and im sure its like that for many of us.
happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:11 Reply with quote Back to top

fidius wrote:
The solution to your personal misery will not be found in the Timeout button, my friend.


Amen. Very Happy

Q: Can I be a jerk but stay within the rules?

A: Yes, it is possible.

Q: But won't that make some people hate me ?

A: Yes, yes indeed!

Re: actual stuffs - it's been written by a bunch of folks in the know for a long time that you should not timeout someone if they say that they are afk (until the 15 min mark where the disconnection rule on the books takes over) - perhaps it's in the official tournament rules somewhere? Anyway, would a FUMBBL admin be okay with something along those lines be added to the actual rules page?

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Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:22 Reply with quote Back to top

There is a lot of conclusive 'doing x makes you a dick/jerk' comments, all of which fail to grasp both sides of the problem, and the complexity of subjective morality. Which highlights at least to me why a subjective issue like this should have a written rule, and why any person won't deal with situations well when they arise.

Closing the client is the best option for the leaver, as theoretically your opponent has to wait 15 mins for your return, instead of 4. However, I've noticed (only once) that if you return within your 4 minute window, you don't get to start from the time that you left(the clock keeps ticking, i assume until 4 minutes, and then it is treated as disconnection by the client), so you have to leave for more than 4 minutes Smile

Annnd licker, I let a guy take 9 mins on a turn today (after saying he needed 5 minutes), then he unnecessarily gang fouled me shortly after. Being a nice guy doesn't result in good karma. "It's just a game, don't take it so seriously and be a dick, when I click the time out button" might have to become my new motto.


Last edited by Desultory on Oct 28, 2016 - 12:50; edited 2 times in total
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Eh, the problem with saying you wish to remove moral debate from this issue is that, fundamentally, this is about morals - and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if tickets about (possible) disconnection/afk & timeout are the ones the admin groups find most tedious and possibly frustrating to deal with. Because really, all that's being asked there is to have an admin make a judgement on two other people's moral quagmire.

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Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:23 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Eh, the problem with saying you wish to remove moral debate from this issue is that, fundamentally, this is about morals - and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if tickets about (possible) disconnection/afk & timeout are the ones the admin groups find most tedious and possibly frustrating to deal with. Because really, all that's being asked there is to have an admin make a judgement on two other people's moral quagmire.


Yes, so remove that by having a written rule of the consequences.
Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:26 Reply with quote Back to top

It's the all in the disconnection rules. What kind of person do you have to be to timeout someone who is taking care of their kids/cats/neighboors/wife/parents/house/whatever?
Anyway just read the rules, they're pretty clear about how the afk should be handled.
Having grey areas means the rules won't be abused.
Just use common sense and act like you wold on tabletop. Would you keep on playing if your opponent goes to the bathroom? I don't think you would...
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

happygrue wrote:


Q: Can I be a jerk but stay within the rules?

A: Yes, it is possible.

Q: But won't that make some people hate me ?

A: Yes, yes indeed!



another fine reason why the timeout button should be used to prevent the turnover, not induce one.

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akaRenton



Joined: Apr 15, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Awful lot of fiesty opinions about something that only a very small number of coaches click on. I've played almost 1500 matches on here, and really haven't experienced the problems with this that would demand such a lengthy debate.

A lot of people on here are grown ups with kids/wives/lives and sometimes the real world needs dealing with quickly. If you think pixels are more important I would question your priorities, but no more than that.

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Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Lorebass wrote:

If they purposefully afk or wait 3 minutes and 50 seconds before they start playing then they are a dick. As well as anyone who doesn't at least give warning that "if you take forever again next turn with no reason, I will time you out" and times you out: they are a dick.


No one purposefully takes 3 minutes and 50 seconds before moving all of his players...

If they are thinking for 3 minutes and then they move, and you berate them to play faster throughout the game, and they type back which makes the turn even longer, and then you subjectively conclude they are taking a long time on purpose, probably because you are in a rush for work. So you then drop the game and write a support ticket, and get away with it because you are an admin.
Would someone be classed as a dick for that? Because in my book, that would be worse than timing some one out. Someone acting like that probably shouldn't be making admin decisions right?


Last edited by Desultory on Oct 28, 2016 - 01:41; edited 2 times in total
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:
I thank all for the replies, but it seems no one is in a position to answer objectively. It's at least nice to clarify that there isn't a written rule.

Personally I would like to see a clear rule written on this, and some other things regarding disconnection issues. But I understand it probably won't happen.

People (which includes admins), rarely make unbiassed decisions. It is better to have clear written rules, .


No it is not, or people will game them.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Uedder wrote:
Just use common sense and act like you wold on tabletop. Would you keep on playing if your opponent goes to the bathroom? I don't think you would...


I've asked this question before!

Q. You're playing TT, your opponent says mid-turn that he needs to go to the toilet and leaves the table. He is obviously gone for much longer than the allotted 4min for his turn. Do you:

(a) Wait for him to return, hoping that his extra-long absence is because he's also getting you both a beer while he's on his feet.

(b) Consider his turn finished, and play your own, or as much of it as you can. On his return, inform him of the events that have transpired.

(c) Consider his turn finished, and play your own. On his return say nothing until he has made/rolled a few moves, and then tell him he's committed illegal procedure for failing to move his turn counter.


C obviously!

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pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:
then he unnecessarily gang fouled me shortly after.


there is no such thing as an unnecessary gangfoul.

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pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2016 - 01:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:
ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Eh, the problem with saying you wish to remove moral debate from this issue is that, fundamentally, this is about morals - and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if tickets about (possible) disconnection/afk & timeout are the ones the admin groups find most tedious and possibly frustrating to deal with. Because really, all that's being asked there is to have an admin make a judgement on two other people's moral quagmire.


Yes, so remove that by having a written rule of the consequences.


rules and consequences (punishments) are different things. likes laws and sentences.

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