Throweck
Joined: Feb 23, 2013
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 Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:16 |
 
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I have played nearly 2000 games on here now and I have pressed it myself once by mistake in my third of fourth game as it went 'ping' so i clicked it.
I don't think there can be a hard and fast rule around it. It all depends on the situation. We could have hard and fast rule for each situation but then that list would be very extensive ranging from 'brb' to 'my cat's on fire'.
Each case has to be taken on it's own merit and whether or not it fits in with the sites Code of Conduct, etc. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:21 |
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| easilyamused wrote: |
If your opponent has told you they have to go afk for whatever reason DO NOT time them out. |
This is prone to exploitation: before an important turn anybody could lie and write "afk", "real life emergency" or whatever excuse in order to not be timed out even if they have no emergency.
When I play in real life vs somebody I can see if he actually goes away for a trouble, while I can't check this online, my opponent could just be a liar. |
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Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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Oct 28, 2016 - 14:25 |
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It seems generally implied that one shouldn't click the timeout button in nearly all situations. Seemingly the only reasoning given is usually that it isn't nice.
It seems to me this is what the admins have concluded as well.
This is flawed reasoning because; not clicking the timeout button has implications too.
In five recent matches I played; I was nice, and I don't click the timeout button. In two of those my star players got 'Petty' fouled late game, in situations that it doesn't advantage my opponent (in regard to the result is settled no matter what), and I lose a good pixel for it.
Is that nice? No, but that is allowed. So why is one nasty allowed and another nasty not.
Now the line of arguments generally go, 'don't care about pixels, care about real life', and we go in circles. But by similar logic, if 'it's just a game', it shouldn't be a big deal that I click the timeout button...
I don't care about pixels, but they take time to acquire spps, so when someone petty fouls when the result is settled, it disadvantages me.
Also does that other person on the other side of the screen care that they are inconveniencing you for x minutes while they disappear to do whatever? (This 'whatever' always seems to be an emergency, or holding or speaking to their kid, in the minds of a few coaches). But mostly, people leave the game for petty reasons. e.g. I can do a piss (even a poo) and end my turn within 4 minutes usually...
I don't know. No one seems to see this side of the story. Those who leave the game a lot for a smoke or whatever will always be biassed towards people not clicking the button. those that don't (me) may tend the other way. |
Last edited by Desultory on %b %28, %2016 - %14:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:32 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | easilyamused wrote: |
If your opponent has told you they have to go afk for whatever reason DO NOT time them out. |
This is prone to exploitation: before an important turn anybody could lie and write "afk", "real life emergency" or whatever excuse in order to not be timed out even if they have no emergency.
When I play in real life vs somebody I can see if he actually goes away for a trouble, while I can't check this online, my opponent could just be a liar. |
Yes it is open to abuse and I completely agree with everything you have just said. But because we cannot know what is going on with the other person we give the benefit of the doubt. Most people here are quite open and honest but you will always get a few people who will take advantage of any loophole to win or get an advantage. Sometimes people forget that this is a social game where we can relax and have fun. |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:35 |
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| Desultory wrote: | It seems generally implied that one shouldn't click the timeout button in nearly all situations. Seemingly the only reasoning given is usually that it isn't nice.
It seems to me this is what the admins have concluded as well.
This is flawed reasoning because; not clicking the timeout button has implications too.
In five recent matches I played; I was nice, and I don't click the timeout button. In two of those my star players got 'Petty' fouled late game, in situations that it doesn't advantage my opponent (in regard to the result is settled no matter what), and I lose a good pixel for it.
Is that nice? No, but that is allowed.
Now the line of arguments generally go, 'don't care about pixels, care about real life', and we go in circles. But by similar logic, if 'it's just a game', it shouldn't be a big deal that I click the timeout button...
I don't care about pixels, but they take time to acquire spps, so when someone petty fouls when the result is settled, it disadvantages me.
Also does that other person on the other side of the screen care that they are inconveniencing you for x minutes while they disappear to do whatever? (This 'whatever' always seems to be an emergency, or holding or speaking to their kid, in the minds of a few coaches). But mostly, people leave the game for petty reasons. e.g. I can do a piss (even a poo) and end my turn within 4 minutes usually...
I don't know. No one seems to see this side of the story. Those who leave the game a lot for a smoke or whatever will always be biassed towards people not clicking the button. those that don't (me) may tend the other way. |
If you read my post I have given examples of when you can and cannot time someone out.
If someone says to you that they want to take a smoke break and you are not happy to wait then tell them. If they then decide to do it anyway and make you wait then take a screenshot and submit a ticket.
At the end of the day commonsense prevails, it's really not as difficult as some people seem to make it out to be. |
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Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:42 |
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| easilyamused wrote: | I'm pretty sure I've had this conversation with you before, but in a nutshell.....
If your opponent has told you they have to go afk for whatever reason DO NOT time them out. If they are gone for 15 minutes then leave the game and treat it as per the disconnection process.
If your opponent had disconnected DO NOT time them out. Follow the process.
If your opponent is just playing slow then you can time them out, you are under no obligation to give them a warning but it would be nice if you did.
Just play nice and everything will be ok, you have no idea what is happening on the other side of the screen. |
I'm happy to accept this as gospel. It removes any conflict I had when the timeout button pops up.
If these are the rules. Why not get them written in to the disconnection rules, and others won't have the same confusion I had.
Still, the decision to choose this way over the allowing people to use timeout button is arbitrary. |
Last edited by Desultory on %b %28, %2016 - %14:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:44 |
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| easilyamused wrote: |
At the end of the day commonsense prevails, it's really not as difficult as some people seem to make it out to be. |
Commonsense is actually intuition, and intuition is open to bias. Nothing is complicated for people who think this simply. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:59 |
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Look, you can time somebody out when he has been moving all turn and simply exceeded the time limit. Rather than suddenly stopped moving. It's as simple as that.
But even then common courtesy dictates that you give a warning first. Just like you would according to table top rules acttually have to announce first that a timer should be used because your opponent is so slow. Rather than that a timer is automatically used on all turns. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 14:59 |
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| easilyamused wrote: |
But because we cannot know what is going on with the other person we give the benefit of the doubt. |
We don't know what's going on, this leads to two options:
1) Benefit of the doubt, no time out;
(it can be exploited by liars and it might generate hostility against the timing-out coach)
or
2) Since we can't check what's going on the time out is automatic (can't be exploited by liars, doesn't generate hostility against the opponent, and it's applied to anybody impartially).
I understand that option 1 has been adopted by FUMBBL probably because the user base plays when doing something else like work, taking care of children, parents, cats etc. and the site might lose coaches in case of automatic time out, but the option 2 is a valid logic alternative.
I know it won't happen, just saying. |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Oct 28, 2016 - 15:17 |
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"This is prone to exploitation: before an important turn anybody could lie and write "afk", "real life emergency" or whatever excuse in order to not be timed out even if they have no emergency."
True. So? What happens? Your opponent gets an unfair advantage because he examines the crap out of the play? He goes to SAMBA and gets the statistics? He comes back an makes the ideal move? Matt Dakka comes THAT much closer to losing a game to someone who is not as good as him? It burns Matt inside that someone might have taken advantage of his patience and good sportsmanship, robbing him of a victory?
Is that the worst case scenario? Is that what you fear will begin to run rampant? Do you even fear an opponent running a few seconds over while making up his mind in a good challenging turn?
"NO FAIR! I'm better than you, and I never take 4 minutess! I shall end your dim-witted ponderings with the time-out button, no matter how good the game is."
Really? Perhaps it's your right, and perhaps 'fairness' and CR ranking is that important to you, but man, can't you see?. Someone is spending their time with you to share in a bit of fun. Keep it fun.
I would submit that every bit of respect that a win and 0.5 CR gets you on this website, or in your own mind, pales in comparison to the respect you lose when you show yourself to be so 'petty' as to time someone out.
The OP seems hung-up of a few goofs that have fouled him at the end of a match, and somehow thinks the time-out button might help solve that problem. I fail to see a valid connection. This site has some noobs and some goofs. Or maybe some people who just don't like you. Who knows. But there is no need to have a "be a jerk first" policy just in case your opponent MIGHT make a jerk move later. That's kind of a sad state to game in. Relax. Enjoy. Laugh at sad people.
Now you've gotten the rule clarification and the FUMBBL forum's opinion of the button. It's a jerk move. Justify it in your own mind if you must. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 15:32 |
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Fortuitously, it appears that in the new edition, IP is being moved to the 'optional rules' section of the rule book. No one ever uses the four minute rule in real life anyway, and the oversight of IP's disproportionately early showing in the rules (leading to the confusion for a new coach that it might actually be a thing) is being fixed.
Hopefully this means the whole sorry business of the timeout button will soon be behind us. The 'but it's in the rules' argument (flawed in my opinion anyway, but that's a different rant) will soon be moot. I'm sure a more reasonable solution to this problem will be found when the site doesn't feel like it's being dictated to by the rules. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 15:38 |
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Come on 'Goo! You know full well that the multiple choice options to my wonderful theoretical situation are totally ruined if you publicly announce to everyone not familiar with playing tabletop that anyone even mentioning IP is usually laughed out of the room  |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 15:41 |
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Sorry, not sorry.  |
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Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
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| Posted:
Oct 28, 2016 - 15:43 |
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Common sense isn't intuition. It's rules by which we live by. They aren't written, but we all follow them.
You don't greet people with a punch in the face but with a handshake. Does it need to be written? No.
Same goes here.
Anyway again you're making a wuss over nothing. The rule is there, it's written and it's been reported to you.
Do not Timeout an away coach.
Do not Timeout a disconnected coach.
You can Timeout a slow coach.
I'm getting the impression all this discussion will only get you less matches offered in Ranked... |
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Nextflux
Joined: Jan 22, 2008
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Oct 28, 2016 - 16:29 |
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what is morally right to do most of us understand, problem is that not everyone is following them, especially when it comes to certain situations.
you have a bad day - make the opponent pay
you play bad - make him pay, to get back even, and win
some are notorious (like me when I play against a dorf team)
What I dont understand is that if people are asking questions, why not jsut write a few words, and there it is.. the new shining rule.
its not that hard, its easy to write you all do it every day. |
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