JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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 Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 08:41 |
 
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| Uedder wrote: | 1)Take away PO and SE. Leave seasons out. Everyone gets a 3000k team in 30 games. 40 maybe.
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No chance in hell they would get that high.
PO is already kinda removed in Ranked  Expensive Mistakes replaces SE. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 15:10 |
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| licker wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | | There will/may be seasons, and people don't like it. |
No, 'people' don't like when applied to R and B .. |
By 'people', I assume you mean 'you'? Or, are you claiming to be a spokesperson for the whole FUMBBL community? You have no idea if your views are shared by 20% of the userbase or 80%.
| licker wrote: | | What any of us individually likes is entirely beside any point of this thread. |
What is the point of this thread, then, if not for people to share their personal views and opinions on the matter being discussed? That's what you've been doing, is it not? |
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Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 15:13 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | 1)Take away PO and SE. Leave seasons out. Everyone gets a 3000k team in 30 games. 40 maybe.
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No chance in hell they would get that high.
PO is already kinda removed in Ranked Expensive Mistakes replaces SE. |
Sure you could play around PO in ranked. Anyway good luck finding games with your bash teams.
Expensive Mistaxes is a different mechanism. It takes care of huge banks. You could still roll with 200k at very high tv and get normal winning. That's more than enough to absorb the attrition.
Removing SE and replacing it with EM would make high tv elves much much easier to sustain (and better because they can afford to replace linemen).
Obviously 3000k was an exaggeration, but it would be easier ro get there.
In this scenario tvs would increase considerably. |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Expensive mistakes isn't a replacement for spiraling expenses. They're not targeting the same problem at all. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 15:25 |
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If anyone was bothered by SE in CRP they could farm a million or two at low TV then forget about it. EM means you can never have huge reserves to rebuild. Of course it isn't a direct replacement but it certainly hampers rampant team building.
| Uedder wrote: |
Expensive Mistaxes is a different mechanism. It takes care of huge banks. You could still roll with 200k at very high tv and get normal winning. That's more than enough to absorb the attrition.
Removing SE and replacing it with EM would make high tv elves much much easier to sustain (and better because they can afford to replace linemen).
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I mean yes and no. Generating a huge bank was a counter to SE. EM means u never get even a big bank to replace losses.
Take this team for example - https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=730473
I wasn't even metagaming this team at all. Plenty of bank to absorb SE or player losses in CRP but in BB2016 they would have 190k or something.
It's not clear cut at all. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 16:01 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | | licker wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | | There will/may be seasons, and people don't like it. |
No, 'people' don't like when applied to R and B .. |
By 'people', I assume you mean 'you'? Or, are you claiming to be a spokesperson for the whole FUMBBL community? You have no idea if your views are shared by 20% of the userbase or 80%. |
Have you been keeping up? That's exactly why I put people in ''s. I'm not pretending to speak for some vast majority, however, from this thread alone one can see that there is a group of us who share this similar opinion.
| JellyBelly wrote: | | licker wrote: | | What any of us individually likes is entirely beside any point of this thread. |
What is the point of this thread, then, if not for people to share their personal views and opinions on the matter being discussed? That's what you've been doing, is it not? |
Selective quoting for the win? Did you not see the next sentence after the one you quoted?
Do you further not actually understand why none of our individual likes really matter that much? But I'm clearly not talking about what I prefer, since I keep on telling you that I don't really care if seasons is implemented or not *it doesn't affect me*. It affects other people and changes what R and B will have to be.
Again, I'm fine with that, but it requires the redefining of those leagues, which to this point, from my understanding of past debates on the topic of open divisions, has not been something 'people' (meaning admins and christer mostly here) were willing to sacrifice to sooth whatever vocal minority/majority.
The thing is, we are being told by Udder at least that we have to accept seasons. And his reason boils down to 'because GW said so!'. Now he may wind up being right about us accepting them, but that reason is just a nonsense reason. GW does not run this site, nor do they run cyanide for that matter, but it remains to be seen what/how cyanide will actually approach any of this.
At least here Christer is transparent in sharing his thoughts, and we (I hope I can speak for everyone on this) share the belief that whatever he will do will have been reasoned out.
So yes, debate away, opine away on how FUMBBL could implement seasons for R and B (since it's largely a non-issue for L anyway). Just stop pretending that we have to do anything. I know what Christer said, I know he would like to adopt seasons somehow for R and B, so I know that's a possible or even likely outcome. But it's not the only outcome, and I think there are enough valid reasons NOT to do it for R and or B to make that point.
Make a new division, merge R and B (somehow) to consolidate player base. Just stick the seasons into L and let people go after whatever they want to go after. All ideas at least as valid as saying we have to shoehorn a system designed for smaller leagues into our existing infinite leagues. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 16:05 |
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| Christer wrote: | | Expensive mistakes isn't a replacement for spiraling expenses. They're not targeting the same problem at all. |
However the effect of EM is to curtail the ability to hoard cash past a certain point, thus it winds up having a similar effect.
Along with the change to how petty cash is used, it seems likely that banks will generally just be smaller, so while it's true that EM doesn't hurt earnings for high TV teams, it's also true that no team is likely to have much more than 300k in their bank at any point ever. I'd go as low as 200k myself, but that's more from seeing how the bank rule at cyanide has affected the mindset of spending your money on inducements. Though they have SE there as well as the bank rule... |
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Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 16:21 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | If anyone was bothered by SE in CRP they could farm a million or two at low TV then forget about it. EM means you can never have huge reserves to rebuild. Of course it isn't a direct replacement but it certainly hampers rampant team building.
| Uedder wrote: |
Expensive Mistaxes is a different mechanism. It takes care of huge banks. You could still roll with 200k at very high tv and get normal winning. That's more than enough to absorb the attrition.
Removing SE and replacing it with EM would make high tv elves much much easier to sustain (and better because they can afford to replace linemen).
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I mean yes and no. Generating a huge bank was a counter to SE. EM means u never get even a big bank to replace losses.
Take this team for example - https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=730473
I wasn't even metagaming this team at all. Plenty of bank to absorb SE or player losses in CRP but in BB2016 they would have 190k or something.
It's not clear cut at all. |
Even huge banks run out when you have no income and have to replace 70k linemen and 100+k positionals.
Take that team of yours in the 2000k TV range and by 20 games gold start being an issue again.
At one point you will either playing with loners, or facing a TV trim that takes you out of SE again.
You can hit high tvs with SE. Sure. But can't sit there forever. At one point you'll face a rebuild. With elves. Not with most bash. What seasons do too, but for everyone. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 16:22 |
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| Uedder wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | If anyone was bothered by SE in CRP they could farm a million or two at low TV then forget about it. EM means you can never have huge reserves to rebuild. Of course it isn't a direct replacement but it certainly hampers rampant team building.
| Uedder wrote: |
Expensive Mistaxes is a different mechanism. It takes care of huge banks. You could still roll with 200k at very high tv and get normal winning. That's more than enough to absorb the attrition.
Removing SE and replacing it with EM would make high tv elves much much easier to sustain (and better because they can afford to replace linemen).
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I mean yes and no. Generating a huge bank was a counter to SE. EM means u never get even a big bank to replace losses.
Take this team for example - https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=730473
I wasn't even metagaming this team at all. Plenty of bank to absorb SE or player losses in CRP but in BB2016 they would have 190k or something.
It's not clear cut at all. |
Even huge banks run out when you have no income and have to replace 70k linemen and 100+k positionals.
Take that team of yours in the 2000k TV range and by 20 games gold start being an issue again.
At one point you will either playing with loners, or facing a TV trim that takes you out of SE again.
You can hit high tvs with SE. Sure. But can't sit there forever. At one point you'll face a rebuild. With elves. Not with most bash. What seasons do too, but for everyone. |
Same with EM though. You make no sense tbh. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 16:24 |
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Seasons are awful btw. I'm probs done with FUMBBL whatever happens but would love to see it thrive. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 17:21 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Seasons are awful btw. I'm probs done with FUMBBL whatever happens but would love to see it thrive. |
Ah, but in [L]eague you'll probably be able to switch it off and keep your old CPOMB too. 
If we're coding options then add in LRB4 DP, claw & RSC. 
Seasons are probably fine though. It is more a case of which values you use. e.g. how many games. If people are generally not really hit until around 2000-2200TV then "people" will love it. As long as it is not too much hassle.
Imposing end of season before Majors sounds a bit like imposing a TV limit. It may be fairer but doesn't seem to be what Majors have been about until now. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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This doesn't seem very productive.
A faction want seasons as that's what the new rules seem to say (to be updated by further supplements) and it would appear to be the new system to limit team value growth.
A faction don't because it messes with their idea of the 'freedom' they have in R and B.
And round and round we go. I'm bored.
Firstly because it won't happen like that, Christer will build a test division, called DivX, we will sandbox around in it and try to break it and then decide what heppens to R and B based on the data/feelings. that's what BigC always does, because its the sane answer.
People upset at losing 'what they have' (like in some way data on Christers computers is yours) will get to keep it, they always do. But should prepare for the fact that they may be gaming in an empty room, as everyone else grudgingly moves on. this happens every rule migration, because people.
Secondly: 'Whaa whaa I dont like the idea of seasons' but no answer yet to what will replace it. A voice against seasons is either for rampant huge TV teams, or for SE to remain, or for some other attrition mechanic. Because in this instance being against something IS being in favour of one of them. And all are bad. Seasons is at least different and seems (unplaytested) less random and more like 'managing' a team.
End result a thread getting ever longer while two people restate postions the other doesnt agree with. Great, and? |
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Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 18:16 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: |
Same with EM though. You make no sense tbh. |
It's not the same because having a constant 200k bank and income from games is the dream of a high tv elf team
It's clear you never really went through such a rebuild with elvea in CRP.
Any coach who did will tell you how much better EM are for high tv elves. Like I dd. And you won't listen to them. Fine. Even you aren't right some times |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2016 - 18:19 |
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I don't think this will be something all that significant one or the other way. If the reset is around 2000 TV it is more like a healthy clean up, hardly worth mentioning unless you have been metagaming super hard all along...
And if there is no reset and if there are some bigger teams, it will be buisness as usual with ranked finding no opponents and blackbox teams playing high TV difference games with lots of inducements that are almost impossible to win.. not really much different from before...
so chill guys |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Dec 04, 2016 - 19:02 |
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If there was no death, no perm, no reset, there would be 16 legendary stat freaks teams fighting for FC forever and ever.
If that is not a problem, then I don't know what could be. |
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There is always Sneaky Git. |
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