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LordTengil



Joined: Feb 16, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2017 - 07:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, so lately I've been seeing a specific defense setup with wood elves going around a lot, one that I've never used myself, and wanted some input.

For the LOS there are the 2 elves, 1 treeman, but off to one corner of the LOS, with the treeman closer to the middle. Then the rest of the team 2 or more squares back (for obvious reasons) in the center but a bit skewed away from the side with the LOS elves and treeman.

I can see the benefit of the skewed LOS setup and skewed back line setup, to force my opponents setup to be skewed a lot if he/she wants the free blocks against my LOS elves. And the correpsonding skewed back line defense, thus leaving the rest of my elves facing the holes.

What bothers me is that this defense setup seems quite weak in 1. stopping key players of the opposition going deep/ at the side of my lines, and 2. utilizing blitz results.

I've seen a lot better coaches than me using it, against teams that it does not make sense to me, for the two above reasons. I'd appreciate some help in understanding the benefits of this setup.

Cheers.
bram



Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2017 - 08:06 Reply with quote Back to top

The defensive set-up you mention is mostly used against slow-moving teams such as dwarfs. They don't have the movement to send some players deep. As for the opportunity to use a blitz, it is great! When they match your asymmetric set-up in order to maximize blocks, they will inevitably leave some gaps open (if they don't match, the amount of blocks will be reduced, which is fine too). You'll need a kicker to exploit this and kick near an opening. If you then get a blitz on the kick-off, you have high chances of recovering the ball and scoring a defensive touchdown.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2017 - 16:10 Reply with quote Back to top

bram wrote:
The defensive set-up you mention is mostly used against slow-moving teams such as dwarfs. They don't have the movement to send some players deep. As for the opportunity to use a blitz, it is great! When they match your asymmetric set-up in order to maximize blocks, they will inevitably leave some gaps open (if they don't match, the amount of blocks will be reduced, which is fine too). You'll need a kicker to exploit this and kick near an opening. If you then get a blitz on the kick-off, you have high chances of recovering the ball and scoring a defensive touchdown.
+1.

LordTengil wrote:
I've seen a lot better coaches than me using it, against teams that it does not make sense to me, for the two above reasons.
Coaches are often rather monogamous when it comes to defensive setup, because they like to be able to respond in the same way over and over. Particularly with speed teams, who can reposition easily. Also, the "offset boat" formation, as I call it, is good for protecting a lot of players.

You're talking about something like this defense, right?
Code:
- - - -|x x x - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- x - - x - -|x - - -
- - - -|- - x x x x x|- - - -

or maybe the back 8 are offset 2 spaces, rather than 1.
Code:
- - - -|x x x - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - x - - x -|- x - -
- - - -|- - - x x x x|x - - -

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
morehouse



Joined: Sep 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2017 - 16:50 Reply with quote Back to top

You can watch some of my set ups with this team, I've played a wide variety of different races but generally set up aggressively regardless.

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=880332

Being too passive and trying to protect your players is not the right way to go. The best way to protect yourself is to scare the other coach. When you stand back and don't put any pressure on your players are just fish in a barrel. The more worried the other player is about you taking the ball the less they will be able to bash you.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 28, 2017 - 17:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Morehouse is primarily a ziggurat coach, and it's not a bad setup, to be sure. It's what I do with my Orcs vs non-Claw teams in the NBFL, and it's very popular in low-TV gaming, where the removal isn't as good and the team's 3rd-6th best players aren't as protection-worthy. Perhaps now that PO is but a memory, the ziggurat will become more common at high TV.

Code:
- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - x -|- x - - - x -|- x - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
LordTengil



Joined: Feb 16, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 05:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks guys! I'll try it out for sure.. Good point about being able to protect about one more player.

The ziggurat is what I have mostly used.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 06:08 Reply with quote Back to top

You can also set up 1 square further forward. Sure it's devastating when opponent rolls quicksnap, but you are more threatening and you better protect the LOS from fouls.

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 06:32 Reply with quote Back to top

So y'all saying I should not be monogamous and passive?

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
LordTengil



Joined: Feb 16, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 09:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod. WHy is it so devatstating when they roll quick snap? They still can't reach you. I'm assuming we are speaking of the first setup in this thread, not the ziggeraut. That is pretty self explanatory.

Likewise, JackassRampant, why set the skewed one up so deep ?
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 17:56 Reply with quote Back to top

LordTengil wrote:
They still can't reach you.


The usual back formation is 2 ranks behind the LOS, and Grod is talking about moving 1 rank up.

Look at JR's latest code.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 19:36 Reply with quote Back to top

LordTengil wrote:
Likewise, JackassRampant, why set the skewed one up so deep ?
It depends on the strength and mobility of the enemy's blitzers to some extent. You can cheat it up a square against slower teams or teams that lack hitters. I do.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
morehouse



Joined: Sep 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 21:02 Reply with quote Back to top

When it comes to getting even more aggressive, do it this way...

- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -

That is my lockdown set up when the opponent needs to score in two turns, situation like that. Have to watch out for frenzy, quick snap, etc. but is very challenging to score against without real nice dice.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 29, 2017 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

That's risky. If you put them a square back, it's only bad vs. Frenzy. But I can see doing it on a short clock against an oppo without Frenzy.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 30, 2017 - 06:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Lots of people call this one "Box" or "Double Box".

If you pull the backline guys INSIDE 1 square... lots of people call that "Chevron". Probably because of its resemblance to a Chevron from Heraldry.

Somebody above was calling it the "Ziggarat"... wich is fine... you can call any of them whatever you want.
But if you read the STICKY about formations there is another defense called the Ziggarat already.



morehouse wrote:
When it comes to getting even more aggressive, do it this way...

- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -

That is my lockdown set up when the opponent needs to score in two turns, situation like that. Have to watch out for frenzy, quick snap, etc. but is very challenging to score against without real nice dice.
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