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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 15:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Throweck wrote:
I still think we have to distinguish between the fact the FUMBBL is designed to be a TT emulator and BB2 is more of a video game. I find it hard to compare sometimes I guess.


IMO Cyanide is as much a TT emulator as Fumbbl. The difference is in the attitude of the coaches. Wink

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Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 16:04 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Throweck wrote:
I still think we have to distinguish between the fact the FUMBBL is designed to be a TT emulator and BB2 is more of a video game. I find it hard to compare sometimes I guess.


IMO Cyanide is as much a TT emulator as Fumbbl. The difference is in the attitude of the coaches. Wink


Yes perhaps K. I've only played a handful of BB2 games on the PS4 so I can't really comment I suppose.

It has a more video game feel though with the cut scenes, etc.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 16:41 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Part of the problem with the old Academy division is that there were far too few games.

People generally couldn't just roll up and get a game whenever they wanted. That was with the old gamefinder where you could see who was LFG. With the new game finder you cannot see who is waiting unless you put up teams (with the right TV) in the right division.

Personally, I don't play many games. If I saw someone waiting in Academy with 0,1,2 etc games I could offer to get them started. Sometimes only play a half just so that they could get the feel of the game/client.

Old gamefinder + chat was much better for this.
A team generator would also be good as the helper may not have a TV1000 team and it is a PITA to create one just to play one half.

Though you did get cherrypickers even in Academy.

Having teams in the league division can be confusing but it does give a better chance of getting a game.
Not being able to play against teams of different rulesets does reduce you match opportunities.


I've been playing games in testmode vs some new coaches to let them find their feet in a manner that won't leave them with no team, or some heavy losses on their record.

But that's still pretty tricky, sometimes you're fortunate enough to have a coach who's already tried the testmode client out just to get used to things etc, but more frequently I sometimes feel like I'm complicating things even further.

That said, it does allow me to use any of X pre-made teams ElYouKey and others have lying around for TT test games and just add rerolls in console.

Also, no pickering!

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

145 should be default for new players, as part of a intro process
The games will be messy and have a low completion rate, the less curated and easier it gets
But that's still progress
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Sending coaches our way to the 145 is appreciated, but if you do I would prefer them being directed towards the discord channel first so we can get an idea of their experience. Some new coaches want to play right away and aren't willing to wait for tournaments, so I'll direct them towards R or B depending. Others need a lot more help, so either a test match or open league match is probably the best and something similar to what Koadah had been doing with Academy.

In any case, if they get on discord they're (imo) a lot more likely to stick around as we have a lot of chat going on and a friendly base of coaches with whom to play future matches. A good way to send them our way is to tell them to check my blog, as I'll provide a brief description there and all the links.

There's always room for experienced coaches too - answering basic site questions, team builds, player skills or teaching matches, so if that interests you stop on by.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 19:20 Reply with quote Back to top

That's kind of what we're talking about- there should not be "basic site questions", if the site is easy enough
If there are, the site is not easy to use. Even the Help isn't very good

Discord, blogs, etc should not be needed
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 19:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I know blizzard has a massive budget, no reason we shouldn't try, and if we try, then their example is a good one to aspire to.


Here's an easy suggestion:
For the first 10? games for a new coach, they have a rookie icon on their name in Ranked teamfinder, (unless they deactivate it)

Coaches playing against this rookie get nothing for it, no SPP/injuries/win result, it's like test mode for you but with your normal ranked team. So you're not motivated to win, only to teach.
(Maybe award an achievement badge or something)


This could kind of replace the 145 club, could make it the default route for rookies, so then we can have a step by step intro guide that introduces players to match making in ranked. (Reducing options being a way to reduce exit points)

Should the rookie team get progress tho? Rookie Vs rookie = both progress
Maybe no permanent injury in your first 10 games, and no progress at all in your first 5 games..? Getting your first team bashed up is definitely an exit point

Maybe a reset button, pops up if you got injuries. Asks if you want to wipe the record of that game. Only available for a coach's first 10 games
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 20:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

Here's an easy suggestion:
For the first 10? games for a new coach, they have a rookie icon on their name in Ranked teamfinder, (unless they deactivate it)

Coaches playing against this rookie get nothing for it, no SPP/injuries/win result, it's like test mode for you but with your normal ranked team. So you're not motivated to win, only to teach.
(Maybe award an achievement badge or something)


no one will play the new coaches with that system and they leave due to boredom. You need an incentive for the teacher to play too.

Just like real school, take away the teacher's salary and benefits, and he stays home instead of teaching your kids.

Ski Junkie's client had it written on the opening graphic "You must own a copy of the board game to use this client".

I think that's wise for new fumbblers.

Be new to fumbbl, not new to bloodbowl. That takes away the video game mentality and cherry picking issue.

best place to recruit is from your local TT league.

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Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 20:25 Reply with quote Back to top

just a fyi, cause I wasn't really aware of it so others might not be too- the Help section can be edited by any coach to make it better. I found this out updating some old 145 links
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 20:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe award something better like 10k gold or 1 MVP then.. but limit it so you can't only play rookies all the time

Don't forget though that people currently sink a lot of time and effort into academy, 145, and the other introduction things, for no reward

Basically I'm suggesting to merge/host Academy within Ranked so that it has some activity, and existing coaches can play with their normal teams


Regarding wiki edits, yea I deleted all references to Piling On from the Skill Selection pages a few months ago, it was 6 months overdue lol.
There is generally too many separate pages currently tho.. it needs a big overhaul IMO
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 20:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok actually, how about this. It's more complicated tho:

New coach doesn't get asked about division, their team is created in as few clicks as possible, they basically just select race and a name
It's created as Academy

They can look for games in Ranked (as above) AND activate in blackbox
In box they have rookie protection as normal and also for their first 10 games they take no permanent injury
Box opponent gets no progress, the game doesn't count. they get only 1x MVP, is told to please teach them rather than beat them up

After 10 games with any team, all the rookie's teams must be converted to B or R
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 20:57
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Rbthma wrote:
the Help section can be edited by any coach to make it better.


I wasn't aware. That is awesome, and a little terrifying (surely there must be some moderation?)

A great opportunity for anyone who is keen, to make the site better.
sann0638



Joined: Aug 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 22:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Rbthma wrote:
just a fyi, cause I wasn't really aware of it so others might not be too- the Help section can be edited by any coach to make it better. I found this out updating some old 145 links


It's true. I did a big chunk a while back about the test function.

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Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 23:37 Reply with quote Back to top

It does log the changes, and you can put in comments. The nice thing about this is that it doesn't pile more work on anyone else.
Silent_Hastati



Joined: Nov 04, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 10, 2018 - 08:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd argue the two biggest stumbling blocks are java and visibility. Java can sometimes be a complete PITA to get working properly, and if you run into a problem fixing it is an arcane ritual that involves begging the computer gods to let you solve it. The nonscalable client is getting harder and harder to use as desktop resolution increases as well.

Visability meanwhile is perhaps a bigger issue. Cyanide's advantage is that as a commercial product, it has advertising, infact simply being a non shovelware title (Which the sports category is a haven for) on Steam is essentially advertising in and of itself. Add to that that Cyanide, as a commercial product, ensures it teaches the bare basics of the game itself in a slow, peicemeal fashion, allows much better new player retention. FUMBBL meanwhile you basically have to already be a Blood Bowl enthusiast to find.

For totally new players however, I feel there might be a bigger stumbling block. Learning Blood Bowl itself. Some will point out things like the 145 league, or various tutorials, or even offer to walk players through the basics of a game, but that doesn't address the main problem. Learning something with another, mostly anonymous real human is stressful. You don't feel as if you can learn at your own pace, or take a break whenever it suits you becuase you are using someone else's valuable time. The thing I've seen proposed here, a video tutorial, addresses this somewhat but runs into a different problem. Watching a video without being able to do the things yourself hinders learning by a great deal, and means if you misunderstand something, you don't realize you have a problem untill it is far, far too late. This is why, above all else, some sort of automated, step by step, here is how the game works system would perhaps help ensnare new players. But then you get heavily into the issue of exactly who would have time to create that.

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