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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 20:15 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
Ok, mrt, I'm at the airport and I've got a few minutes. Here's the thing: all this talk about competitiveness between R and B teams and whether a pimped up R team actually gives you a higher chance to win a major, is largely irrelevant to the point I am trying to make, which you keep missing.

For me, it's not about maximising my chances to win a tourney, it's about the process that a team goes through to get there. As far as I am concerned, I am not interested in facing tainted, pimped up R teams with my Box teams. Not because I think they'll beat me, but because, in many cases, those coaches have chosen the easy option to get there. Those teams don't deserve to be there - they haven't earned the right to be competing against my honest Box teams in a tournament. Who wins the game or the tourney is totally irrelevant.

In some ways, I would rather play against Death Gaurd Legion and lose, than play against a pimped R team and win.

It seems that for you, open play is just a means to an end. As long as we end up with a tourney at the end of it where everyone is more or less on a level playing field, it's all good. I think that is where our opinions differ. For me, the whole playing environment matters - the process that you go through to get to that tourney at the end matters.


Fair enough. I just don't get why it's a lynchpin to participating at all. But I also cut the mold off of cheese when its a little long in the tooth.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 20:20 Reply with quote Back to top

RedDevilCG wrote:
There should be one tourney where teams are premade. Then it's really down to skill and luck.


+1

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 21:06 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Man, I wish one of you malcontents had won more than 3 official tournaments over your tenure here so that the complaint of 'uneven playing field' had some sort of basis.


This made me laugh. JellyBelly, MattDakka are saying in a nutshell that at least some FUMBBL Majors should be fair for everyone – the hard-core, part-timers and newcomers. And you respond that we are not good enough coaches to have an opinion on this? That is exactly the sort of elitest nonsense we are opposing.


I think I went a little too hot on the landing - it's not about being good enough to have an opinion and that wasn't my intent, it's about not unwittingly trying to maintain a status quo that is mostly beneficial to one's self at the margins. I guess I was wrong about a lot of your motivations - mea culpa.

Quote:
Ok maybe a really good coach would have more of an insight into the new metadynamics of FUMBBL Majors, so let’s explore your patronising and slightly offensive point. MattDakka moves between Legend and a high Superstar on here, and has been as high as Rank 11 on CR. Over the last year Jellybelly has also spent almost all his time as either a Legend or Superstar. I have usually been a Legend in the top 50 for the last five years. Despite only having played 758 games in that time I have made a FUMBBL Cup Final, which after all my moves were played out in normal time I had a ~67% chance of winning whatever my opponent did (I lost, so does that mean my opinion now counts for nought lol?). I’ve also made a Warpstone Open Semi, and won two qualifier tournaments in the UI and GTT, despite not having the time to enter many of these Majors (much as I would have loved to). I've also finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd out of 13 NAF tournaments so far, including runner-up in the Welsh Open which is the second biggest UK tournament. You have played over 3000 games but have consistently been ranked below average, have achieved nothing at all in Majors, and have an overall losing record (48%). So by your very own elitest argument coaches should listen to MattDakka, JellyBelly and me, and ignore you!


As JellyBelly points out - open play is a means to an end at this point for me. And I try to avoid giving tactical advice because I know my station Wink I'm not trying to position myself as knowing better than most how to win on a minute tactical level, I'm saying I have more familiarity with the meta of both R and B in relation to tourney-looking teams at this point, both from administering Black Box Brawls and grinding in both environments over the last few months and participating against Box teams in Brawls. I am a reporter on the street, not a god-king delivering wisdom from on high.

Quote:

I don’t actually believe in that elitest nonsense you are strangely suggesting, and that is our very point –the showcase Majors should be equally open to ALL coaches, whether they are hard-core gamers here, part-timers, or newbies. That is going out of the window with the recent GW rules changes, and now these Majors changes, which are a poisonous combination where farmed Ranked mega-teams created by coaches who are able to play here every day get a huge and unfair advantage.


Okay, this is where the big breakdown is then - the changes to the participant pool doesn't change the open access. This is why I went down the 'tourney expectations path' in the first place - to try and nail down the irrational duality of wanting 'access for all' and then seeing it as 'unfair' that obsessive addicts get to utilize the teams they've put many more hours into. Like, I don't believe in qualified equality for an all access tourney and I absolutely believe every coach should be entitled to the reward of the effort and time they've put into their team.

And I thinks its weird to champion fairness here where fairness is desired for seemingly peace of mind instead of materially affecting the actual chances of coaches to compete. If equity between teams was an integral component of Major then I'd expect some sort of restrictions in place and even individual handicapping to level the playing field - the antithesis of open access you hold in high regard.

I think this gets down to a deeper philosophical discussion about values when it comes to equity vs. equality and we all vary on the spectrum of that. If you're shooting for equality in access and experience for all participants then the system at current is facilitating that already - the inherent differences between coach and team are the differentiators in outcome. If you're shooting for equity, then we have nothing close to that because there aren't any mechanisms that provide outcomes less tilted towards the inherentness of coach and team alluded to above.

Minors with TV caps are somewhat more equitable than Majors but still not even close to being actual equitable.


Quote:

Koadah made a good point that only 2 of the quarter-finalists in the last FUMBBL Cup were Blackbox. Looking at the last four in detail, the winner ended the tournament with 2540TV, and the others were 2360 (finalist), 2110 and 2070. When I previously got far in the Majors I mentioned above, I used teams of 1600 to 1800. It was achievable because with the old ruleset, Ranked teams didn’t get so farmed and pimped (spiralling expenses), and the inducements were fairer (+wizard, and a much better inducement system where you couldn’t use a pot of gold to attempt to buy games). I still have teams in that sort of bracket, but frankly I think their chances now of doing anything comparable in the current environment are very low indeed, so low I’m not sure I will even bother entering any Majors for a while now (unless I can spend probably about half a year to get at least one team up there? Sigh).


This is what I was talking about in understanding the meta - giving up inducements between the 0 and Best Star Available Price is negligible and even then very team dependent. The lack of wizard makes a 150 TV gap laughable. This is a huge change that seemingly hasn't been fully integrated by some coaches.

Quote:

I repeat – Majors are the showcase of this site, and therefore if we want FUMBBL to thrive then at least SOME of them should offer a fairly-level playing field to all coaches. I understand that games between really high TV teams are fun to watch, and it’s also fun fluff-wise to have long-running big teams with rich histories. Not arguing with that. But if ALL the Majors only cater to hard-core gamers who have the time to build - or even farm - mega Ranked sides, it risks alienating part-timers and newcomers. None of us want that, do we? Or maybe some do, but as the hard-core gamers continue to enjoy Majors, many of the others will switch off and FUMMBL will continue to decline. I hope I’m wrong, but that is the way I see it – in fact I think it is already happening from the games-played stats, and it seems others share these concerns.


I would argue that declines in FUMBBL participation are not discretely rooted in things like specific unpalatable changes. There is competition in BB2 now, there was a steep decline between LRB4 and CRP even though the experience with LRB4's client from what I can tell was anything but elegant (and open to exploitation). Some segment of coaches don't like change regardless of the actual change - that seems more integral than a handful of coaches looking strictly at how Majors work and saying "not for me, I guess". That's part of why I invoked ya'lls tourney participation - you had the status quo and didnt use it to the point that it could sustain itself and now ya'll are sad about losing the status quo.

Quote:

To end on a positive note - the Blackbox Trophy did the right thing, and created a competitive environment where all sides could fairly compete from low TV up. Result - a resounding success with LOADS more games played in Box. (Just a shame the bar is so high at ~ 200 games in a year, if it had been lower the uptake would have been even higher!). We should be aiming at THAT kind of approach for Ranked and Majors too.


Agree - it's been great.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 21:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Tried to respond in BOLD. I hope it worked.


[quote="almic85But what if the group of Box coaches that see the division as something more than just a fancy autoscheduler?

Where are they going to go? It is simply a logic barrier preventing the from accepting this. That and the fact that they have the ears of the Admins catering to their whims.


I can see you seem to hate this idea of “box purity”, but to a large number of coaches that is exactly what they want out of Box.

I don't hate it. I get it. But I also see how foolish they are being.
And I know almost all of them. (Not all though.) Are in Europe where there are so many coaches they can afford to pursue this purity with every game and selfish with their toy while continuing to encroach on what had always been the territory of Ranked.
They have the numbers to ignore the rest of the world. And if they will open their eyes they would see that they will STILL have the numbers to continue their search for purity as often they wish.
Moreover if they will open their eyes they will see that a merger is the absolute solution to the worst thing about the BOX. No diversity at high TV.


I don’t really see the same “purity” argument from Ranked coaches, which is why I asked if you just wanted the autoscheduler in Ranked as opposed to merging Ranked and Box.

Because Box came SECOND. Ranked was here long before Box. And most Box purists are very good coaches that would get ducked in Ranked. That or they don't like the idea of open matchmaking. They think it leads to totally unfair games at all times.
But that is also ridiculous. Because BOTH COACHES in each game must enter the game WILLINGLY. In Ranked you are free to play an opponent who is not your equal if you CHOOSE.
I mean... Halflings are part of this game. Where is their equal?
I HATE playing against Necros... they aren't even a top tier roster... but for me they are. They beat me all the time it seems. I am not getting a fair matchup when I play against Necros no matter which roster I am using.
In LRB4 1 of my favorite matchups was to be NORSE and play vs Chaos and Elves. Norse is WORSE than those teams... but it was 1 of my favorite matches to play. I CHOSE it.
But they do not have to use the Open Matchmaking... and especially in Europe they might never have to play the Pimped Pansy Elves they dread so much.


What I don’t get about the argument for merging the divisions is that it will lead to less coaches and less team availability in the single environment for both manual and auto schedule coaches as coaches will still have to divide and commit to the type of scheduling on a per match basis. The guys that commit to an autoscheduler game aren’t going to be able to accept manual schedules games and vice versa.

NO. You don't get it. The BOX either has 4 or more coaches in it or it doesn't. You can SEE if it does or doesn't. And if you want to jump in when it does... you are going to get the game you want right away.
Game Finder either has coaches on it looking for games or it doesn't. And you can SEE if it does or doesn't. If you want to try your luck on in an Open Match... give it s shot. YOU might get ducked... but if you are you were going to get ducked ANYWAY.
GO check the Box again to see if others have gone there.
The POINT is you can use the SAME TEAM (or teams) that YOU want to play.
It is NOT POSSIBLE to lower the number of Box Games... because these purity guys are going to be there still. And players that like to switch will be joining in at times adding to games in the scheduler.
(And the purity guys get the same options that right now they PRETEND they will not use. They will if they are not in Europe because they want games more than sitting around NOT PLAYING just like everyone else.)


Also if you think you have it bad in NA try playing in the Australasian Timezone. The only box activations you get are when the SWL coaches all decide to activate.

No. I know. You guys would also benefit. But I wonder if the change would be enough for you guys. It would be better for you tough I suppose.


Edit: apologies my fat fingers don’t type properly on touch screens.[/quote]
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 21:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Caps and Bold. What's next, discovery of the size function? Wink
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 21:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Coaches here want FAIRNESS in THIS game? LOL Yeah.

I want a STRENGTH 5 Beastman with Blodge and Sure Hands to carry the ball for my tea like I have had to play against too.

I want 2 Bull Centaurs with Strength 5 and Agility 3 and Dodge and Break Tackle on my team too.

And I want all my Human team players to have Agility 4 like the Elves and AV 9 underpriced Blitzers like the Orcs and faster Throwers and Catchers like the Skaven get and 3 Big Guys like the Pact teams have.

FAIRNESS. Do you guys hear yourselves?


All I want it a chance to PLAY the freaking game when I get here without having to start a new rookie team because when my teams get good I can't get games and I can't get enough Box games to get a good team.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 21:50 Reply with quote Back to top

We should let every league have their own scheduler. Like on Cyanide. Wink

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 22:09 Reply with quote Back to top

How about this. Instead of merging, simply allow ranked teams to also optionally go into the scheduler with Box teams. Ranked and Box teams will now play each other all the time in every tournament, so we can just extend that to the scheduler too. Keep everyone happy!

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ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 13, 2018 - 22:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
All I want it a chance to PLAY the freaking game when I get here without having to start a new rookie team because when my teams get good I can't get games and I can't get enough Box games to get a good team.


Then maybe you're commandeering the wrong thread. This thread is about changes to the Major Tournaments. If timezones are such a huge issue for you then you won't be entering Majors against a mostly Euro population pool anyway.

There is no getting around the fact that Fumbbl is mostly Euro. You can DEMAND they change things to suit you, you can change your ways to fit with them, or you can see what you can do to grow the pool in your own back yard.

I get the timezone issues. I'm mostly League, but I play a bit of Box on the weekends.
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 00:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
How about this. Instead of merging, simply allow ranked teams to also optionally go into the scheduler with Box teams. Ranked and Box teams will now play each other all the time in every tournament, so we can just extend that to the scheduler too. Keep everyone happy!


I could live with this. As long as the Box v Ranked didn't mess with my sprint data. At present Box vs Ranked doesn't count in the sprints/ARR/...
gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 01:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
How about this. Instead of merging, simply allow ranked teams to also optionally go into the scheduler with Box teams. Ranked and Box teams will now play each other all the time in every tournament, so we can just extend that to the scheduler too. Keep everyone happy!


This seems like a really elegant solution that I'm surprised hasn't come up more. Everybody gets more games, while still maintaining the "purity" of Box teams for those that care. You do still have to worry about having to face farmed/picker Ranked teams, but, well, if they're signing up for the scheduler they're not exactly going to be picker teams for very long!
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 02:40 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
Caps and Bold. What's next, discovery of the size function? Wink



Slaughter of the Rams to be roasted on a spit.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 02:47 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
All I want it a chance to PLAY the freaking game when I get here without having to start a new rookie team because when my teams get good I can't get games and I can't get enough Box games to get a good team.


Then maybe you're commandeering the wrong thread. This thread is about changes to the Major Tournaments. If timezones are such a huge issue for you then you won't be entering Majors against a mostly Euro population pool anyway.

There is no getting around the fact that Fumbbl is mostly Euro. You can DEMAND they change things to suit you, you can change your ways to fit with them, or you can see what you can do to grow the pool in your own back yard.

I get the timezone issues. I'm mostly League, but I play a bit of Box on the weekends.



Don't presume to tell me what to do.

And this does not just suit me.
It suits almost every single coach here on the site that has a common complaint with Ranked OR Box.
Name a complaint about Box you have seen a thread about ore than 1 time. I solve that problem with my suggestion.
Name a common complaint about Ranked (other than filthy pickers which I don't have a solution for) and I solve that too.

You on the other hand. What have you done other than attack the guy that has fixed the site for the betterment of every single coach? That is all you have done.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 02:49 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
Grod wrote:
How about this. Instead of merging, simply allow ranked teams to also optionally go into the scheduler with Box teams. Ranked and Box teams will now play each other all the time in every tournament, so we can just extend that to the scheduler too. Keep everyone happy!


I could live with this. As long as the Box v Ranked didn't mess with my sprint data. At present Box vs Ranked doesn't count in the sprints/ARR/...




See. You AGREE with EXACTLY what I have suggested we do. Yet you attacked me for it.
What is the difference in what Grod has said and my solution other than he preserves the NAMES of the separate divisions?

The answer is there is no other difference.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 02:54 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
Grod wrote:
How about this. Instead of merging, simply allow ranked teams to also optionally go into the scheduler with Box teams. Ranked and Box teams will now play each other all the time in every tournament, so we can just extend that to the scheduler too. Keep everyone happy!


This seems like a really elegant solution that I'm surprised hasn't come up more. Everybody gets more games, while still maintaining the "purity" of Box teams for those that care. You do still have to worry about having to face farmed/picker Ranked teams, but, well, if they're signing up for the scheduler they're not exactly going to be picker teams for very long!


Again. Same thing I've been attacked for all day long. It is exactly as I have proposed since the day BOX 1st moved out of TESTING and became it's own separate division and led to so any arguments on this site.
You should have been listening to me over a decade ago.
But if it tales Grod saying it to get it done... we can all call it's Grods idea.
I just want more games and all of the worst aspects of the competitive Divisions solved.
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