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tmoila



Joined: Nov 25, 2012

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 02:57 Reply with quote Back to top

That's a retarded idea because it gives no incentive to put your team in blackbox in the first place.

Of course if you were to give out extra MVP's for every 5 games and some extra gold, then it might be worth it.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 03:14 Reply with quote Back to top

tmoila wrote:
That's a retarded idea because it gives no incentive to put your team in blackbox in the first place.

Of course if you were to give out extra MVP's for every 5 games and some extra gold, then it might be worth it.



There is no incentive to play any kind of game NOW.
What are you on about?
gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 04:33 Reply with quote Back to top

tmoila wrote:
That's a retarded idea because it gives no incentive to put your team in blackbox in the first place.

Of course if you were to give out extra MVP's for every 5 games and some extra gold, then it might be worth it.


The lack of incentive is the point--it's a self imposed handicap for purists that doesn't require splitting the playerbase. Coaches that just want to find games easily can migrate to Ranked and keep using the scheduler as much as they want, coaches that want to preserve the spirit of matchmaking-only can keep making teams in Box.
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 07:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
ramchop wrote:

I could live with this. As long as the Box v Ranked didn't mess with my sprint data. At present Box vs Ranked doesn't count in the sprints/ARR/...


See. You AGREE with EXACTLY what I have suggested we do. Yet you attacked me for it.


I didn't wholeheartedly agree with Grod. I have very real concerns with it. I don't believe I attacked you.


Sp00keh wrote:
But man, you sound like a lunatic


This, I wholeheartedly agree with.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
Grod wrote:
How about this. Instead of merging, simply allow ranked teams to also optionally go into the scheduler with Box teams. Ranked and Box teams will now play each other all the time in every tournament, so we can just extend that to the scheduler too. Keep everyone happy!


This seems like a really elegant solution that I'm surprised hasn't come up more. Everybody gets more games, while still maintaining the "purity" of Box teams for those that care. You do still have to worry about having to face farmed/picker Ranked teams, but, well, if they're signing up for the scheduler they're not exactly going to be picker teams for very long!


This idea:

1. Doesn't allow Box teams to use the gamefinder.
2. Doesn't offer Box teams the option to only face Box/Scheduler teams. Pure/Pure.

Or does this idea include migrating existing Box teams to Ranked?

This seems like a worse idea than merging.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 10:35 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
JellyBelly wrote:
Ok, mrt, I'm at the airport and I've got a few minutes. Here's the thing: all this talk about competitiveness between R and B teams and whether a pimped up R team actually gives you a higher chance to win a major, is largely irrelevant to the point I am trying to make, which you keep missing.

For me, it's not about maximising my chances to win a tourney, it's about the process that a team goes through to get there. As far as I am concerned, I am not interested in facing tainted, pimped up R teams with my Box teams. Not because I think they'll beat me, but because, in many cases, those coaches have chosen the easy option to get there. Those teams don't deserve to be there - they haven't earned the right to be competing against my honest Box teams in a tournament. Who wins the game or the tourney is totally irrelevant.

In some ways, I would rather play against Death Gaurd Legion and lose, than play against a pimped R team and win.

It seems that for you, open play is just a means to an end. As long as we end up with a tourney at the end of it where everyone is more or less on a level playing field, it's all good. I think that is where our opinions differ. For me, the whole playing environment matters - the process that you go through to get to that tourney at the end matters.


Fair enough. I just don't get why it's a lynchpin to participating at all. But I also cut the mold off of cheese when its a little long in the tooth.


Some of us like blue cheese .. Wink

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 10:46 Reply with quote Back to top

My position on this 'blur the boundaries between Box and Ranked' thing is that there should be no blurring/merging at all, at any level. The divisions should be maintained as separate, distinct playing environments, which has served the site well for the past several years.

Even this merging of R/B tourneys is enough for me to want to quit playing the Box.

(ok, shared FUMBBL Cup and XFLs are ok, but that's it!)

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 10:47 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
gpope wrote:
Grod wrote:
How about this. Instead of merging, simply allow ranked teams to also optionally go into the scheduler with Box teams. Ranked and Box teams will now play each other all the time in every tournament, so we can just extend that to the scheduler too. Keep everyone happy!


This seems like a really elegant solution that I'm surprised hasn't come up more. Everybody gets more games, while still maintaining the "purity" of Box teams for those that care. You do still have to worry about having to face farmed/picker Ranked teams, but, well, if they're signing up for the scheduler they're not exactly going to be picker teams for very long!


This idea:

1. Doesn't allow Box teams to use the gamefinder.
2. Doesn't offer Box teams the option to only face Box/Scheduler teams. Pure/Pure.

Or does this idea include migrating existing Box teams to Ranked?

This seems like a worse idea than merging.


Allow one way migration from Box to Ranked. Being a black box team signifies the team never picked a match, and still counts as a separate division with its own coach rating and rankings and grid. It doesn't matter if some coaches migrate teams to Ranked, because they will still put their Ranked teams in the scheduler. The game finder remains Ranked only, as the whole point of being in the Box (and staying there) is that the team never picked any matches.

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Last edited by Grod on Jan 14, 2018 - 10:49; edited 1 time in total
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 10:49 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
But then I don't see myself as an R coach or a B coach, but as a FUMBBL coach. I have hence never understood why R and B exist as different and the scheduler isnt available to all (with a 'flag' for 'pure' scheduler teams so those few can be happy).


Fair enough, but there are players on the site who very much value the separation of two different playing environments, which having two separate divisions facilitates.

PurpleChest wrote:
I have always felt the more competitive Tournaments were the Capped and lower TV ones. These do seem to be very rare nowadays, and maybe they don't have the player base to keep running, but I do miss scheduled smacks at set TV limits. It does feel at times as if the Minor Tourney scene has become all about huge teams smashing into smaller teams.

If I have a concern it is that one of my guiding principles was to try and create/provide Tourneys so that every coach at every level with every team at every level had some sort of Tourney option available to them if they wished. I feel this is no longer true.


Word.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 10:51 Reply with quote Back to top

@Grod: No. Because that means that decent, honest Box teams will have to risk playing against farmed, tainted Ranked teams, without even knowing about it!. I honestly can't imagine anything worse.

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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 10:55 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
PurpleChest wrote:

I also don't see why any team built in a competitive division should not be allowed to enter. When I was Tourney manager I always had plans ready for the day someone told me to let everyone into everything.


That is why the Fumbbl Cup is the big one. Smile


This is a good point. Allowing both Ranked and Box teams now in every tournament (not even just every major), will somewhat de-value the FUMBBL Cup.

Now, every week we can have an uncapped-TV tourney where both R and B teams can join ... why wait?! Wink

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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 11:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
You BOX coaches

I stopped reading at this point.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 12:57 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
@Grod: No. Because that means that decent, honest Box teams will have to risk playing against farmed, tainted Ranked teams, without even knowing about it!. I honestly can't imagine anything worse.


Just why would that matter if the scheduler is choosing matchups on the basis of TV etc? Why would the match be more or less competitive? Just curious.

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Fanky



Joined: Jul 07, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 13:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod i guess the answer is that ranked teams have less injured players (no tv change) and more stat freaks. MattDakka explained it before quite in detail.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 13:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:

Allow one way migration from Box to Ranked. Being a black box team signifies the team never picked a match, and still counts as a separate division with its own coach rating and rankings and grid. It doesn't matter if some coaches migrate teams to Ranked, because they will still put their Ranked teams in the scheduler. The game finder remains Ranked only, as the whole point of being in the Box (and staying there) is that the team never picked any matches.


This idea is just "merge the divisions" with the extra restriction that if you start a new team as Box it won't be able to use the scheduler.

You still need a "pure only" flag for Box teams that don't want to play vs Ranked teams.

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