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Poll
Should a larger TV team be able to choose to buy lots of inducements, unopposed by a smaller, poorer team?
Yes always - it's in the new rules
53%
 53%  [ 35 ]
No never - it's unsporting and unfair, a poorly written aspect of the new rules
30%
 30%  [ 20 ]
Yes but only in tournaments, or some other condition (please explain)
15%
 15%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 65


DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 16:22 Reply with quote Back to top

So I just played a tourney game, and despite being the bigger team I had the opportunity of spending over 200k in inducements unopposed (opponent had 10k). I was in a real quandary beforehand - felt wrong to spend it, but then it's in the rules to do so. In the end I didn't (and lost to some super-gutters!).

What do coaches consider the right action in this instance? Would be very interested to hear what the community thinks, I am still unsure and think it's a real grey area. Frankly imho I think the rules are poorly written here, heard someone in GW admitted as much and players should revert to old ones to avoid mismatches in spending. But even if that's true I guess we're still stuck with what is actually written for now...

How should we put this into practice, do we just strictly follow the rules, or is there a 'code' we should adhere to for sportsmanship?
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 16:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Had this convo with AD just a couple hours ago. My position is that you play on the turf as you find it, his is that we need a rules change.

I think inducing babes, cards, bribes, saws, etc. as the favorite is just fine in Ranked and in tournaments, but I don't Box much, and I could see how it would be a problem there because the formula doesn't consider treasury. Some fraction of Treasury in excess of 90k, added to TV in Box matchmaking formula, would be an improvement. Or a Box-only house rule.

In a tourney (or in a longer-running league), you're supposed to take advantage of the rules as you find them. Inducing as the favorite is fine, IMO. My TT league is getting to the point where the richer teams have started to splash around, and are seeing the power of a 160k+ Treasury. This has been more good than bad in my league, because since I'm dominating with Underworld (who take too much damage to splash much at low development), the splashers are all the middling coaches. But I could see how some leagues would not benefit from this.

In open Ranked, it's not a huge problem, but Treasury becomes one more thing to look out for. If you have an 11-man team and your opponent has 12 men and enough cash to take a bribe without breaking the bank, you need to see that. I think this may be frustrating for new coaches, but it's one more parameter to game around, which I personally find refreshing.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
Nextflux



Joined: Jan 22, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 17:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Problem with a code is we get two groups, thouse that follow the code, and thouse that dont.
If you follow the code, you are forced to look take a hard look at yourself and decide: Are you a sucker to play with a handicap? The code is a self-implied handicap that restricts a use of money you earned. If your fine with it, all is good, if not the code can become an infestation of anger.

The only solution is clear rules, not codes. We can talk endlessly over sportmanship and other rightiousness, but in the end of the day, you eather become the sucker or the cheat.

who do you want to be?
In your match you lost against skaven, as you know, skaven doesnt need more TV to win, they just need a few gutters, in wich case maybe spending money isnt a breach of sportsmanship or whatever we call it. We might never know the correct answer to this, but if it is a problem here in fummbl, why not make a tournament rule: -You are not allowed to spend money as an overdog- .Maybe its better to do this instead of making GW change rules?

Personally I dont think its cheating, really, money cant be saved up, so its not very exploitable, its just for that one match you got loads of cash. It has to be more unfair for me to react on it.

another question: do we want the rules to revert back to the old rules? personally I like these rules better, they are not perfect, but better.
Jeguan



Joined: Jan 25, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 17:05 Reply with quote Back to top

https://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/clarifications/#1
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 17:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Jeguan wrote:
https://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/clarifications/#1


from link:

"Note that BB2016 inducements, sideline staff, stadia etc are not yet covered."

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lawofthewest



Joined: Nov 09, 2017

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 17:15 Reply with quote Back to top

you can do whatever you want... in League. For ranked,tournament or Blackbox I'm not that sure Smile

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Rule 1: Never tell everything you know.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 17:19 Reply with quote Back to top

let them buy blings and waste money, so they won't have enough to replace their crippled wardancers after the match.

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"la virtú sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 17:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Jeguan wrote:
https://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/clarifications/#1

"clarification" lol

The RAW with no reactionary panic amendments, used as intended, work just fine in most formats. These haven't been perfectly implemented here, and they certainly weren't written with the LRB6 Blackbox matchmaking formula in mind, but what we have is playable in Ranked, so long as you go into it with open eyes, and could be fixed in Box.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 18:04 Reply with quote Back to top

IMO it's all fair game. TV is a mediocre measure of a team's strength and inducements are a pretty terrible leveling mechanism (especially with the wizard gone), so I say you might as well let anarchy reign. Besides, letting people spend freely works both ways; I think letting the underdog dump extra cash on top of their free inducements more than balances out letting the overdog spend freely.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 18:09 Reply with quote Back to top

in a tournament, you can/should do ANYTHING you need to do to win.

end of story

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 18:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I was in a Major semi final and, due to the vagaries of time and date, the rules changed as we were drawn in the semi finals, giving my opponent 500K to spend as overdog that had never faced an expensive mistakes roll and would almost certainly disappear after the game.

I posted somewhere that it was clear my opponent would induce with the cash and said coach then accused me of bad sportsmanship by trying to influence him not to spend. I didn't mind, he did induce, the Ramtut bought proved pivotal and he won.

But we both played the rules as they were that day, and I would happily do so again. That's all you can do.

It also shows that 'sportsmanship' is very much in the eye of the beholder. My advice remains the same: Have fun and have it your way, everyone else is. Just make sure you allow the same courtesy to others.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 18:32 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
IMO it's all fair game. TV is a mediocre measure of a team's strength and inducements are a pretty terrible leveling mechanism (especially with the wizard gone), so I say you might as well let anarchy reign. Besides, letting people spend freely works both ways; I think letting the underdog dump extra cash on top of their free inducements more than balances out letting the overdog spend freely.


+1. The way the rules are currently written, using your excess treasury to buy inducements is part of the game. I will do so if I get the chance, and expect my opponent to do likewise.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 18:36 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
IMO it's all fair game. TV is a mediocre measure of a team's strength and inducements are a pretty terrible leveling mechanism (especially with the wizard gone), so I say you might as well let anarchy reign. Besides, letting people spend freely works both ways; I think letting the underdog dump extra cash on top of their free inducements more than balances out letting the overdog spend freely.


How would you say that works if I draw you in box, it's your first game for your team, and I'm 100tv higher than you. You have 0 treasury, and I've got 120k+

I can quite easily spend cash to wipe out your 2 babes/apo/bribe, or I can induce a saw if I want.

Either way, not only can I simply remove *any* effect your inducements might have, I'm also able to create a TV gap the box would not schedule.

And this is possible across a range of TVs and scenarios so long as TV is a factor in scheduling the game - it might not be a situation where the game would be impossible to schedule, but it may create a scenario where different matches would've been made.




This is my over-arching issue with spending. Tournaments fall outside that measure because TV isn't a factor in making the draw. The wizard incidentally, is coming back. Confirmed today.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 18:50 Reply with quote Back to top

The commissioner's word is law. If the commish leaves a rule in then play it.

Use your judgment. If you feel bad about doing it then don't do it. But don't be whining if someone else does it.

Oh, wait. Whining can be a sneaky bit of gamesmanship to try to get the opponent to gimp themselves. Wink


ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
The wizard incidentally, is coming back. Confirmed today.


The full Monty wizard or the nerfed wizard?

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Massive teams - massive matches - open play
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2018 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

The better Wizard. At 150k.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
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