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Poll
Should a larger TV team be able to choose to buy lots of inducements, unopposed by a smaller, poorer team?
Yes always - it's in the new rules
53%
 53%  [ 36 ]
No never - it's unsporting and unfair, a poorly written aspect of the new rules
31%
 31%  [ 21 ]
Yes but only in tournaments, or some other condition (please explain)
14%
 14%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 67


happygrue



Joined: Oct 15, 2010

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally, I would refrain from inducing as the overdog in a match where I feel I am the favorite. I sometimes bend this in tournaments, but sometimes I have not and stuck to my guns even when I *wanted* to induce. Very Happy

For other folks, I don't really mind how they spend their money. BUT I think there is one way this really irks me, and that's a team that is clearly needing to buy players but is choosing to induce as an overdog instead. For example, teams running 3 Jman elves or rats or whatever, that save cash for inducements and then just put those 3 Jman on the line every time... That is just plain abuse of the system. You should be spending money to get to at least 11 before inducing as the overdog. Adding 10K so you can get a babe as 40K underdog? Fine.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 15:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, in a world where you're not supposed to abuse the Journeyman rules, splashing as the favorite while running an incomplete roster is abusive. Perhaps this is the type of behavior that constitutes "Journeyman abuse" in the new environment. Should we be reporting people who seemingly-intentionally spend 50k+ from Treasury while running fewer than 11 rostered players?

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Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The difference between having +ST, a Wardancer or lot of Guards and inducements is that the cash-bought inducements are not calculated BEFORE the game by the matchmaking formula/scheduler (unlike the +ST, Wardancers, Guards), and this may create an unbalanced match-up.

That doesn't really matter since blackbox doesn't have the goal of creating equal matchups (in terms of equal chance of winning) in the first place. If it did it would implement TV++.

Games are already unequal in blackbox very often because sometimes one team will have much higher TV, sometimes one team will be much more minmaxed, sometimes one team will have focused on dodge while the other have focused on tackle and sometimes one of the coaches is much better or much luckier. If one of the teams can also have an advantage by having more money to spend on inducements once in a while, I don't see that much of a problem myself considering the games are often unequal in the first place. If you want games to be perfectly equal, then you should start advocating for TV++.

Quote:
Also, some teams (generally the bash ones) don't need to replace players as often as low armour teams, it's not due to superior coaching skill, but just to inherent roster differences.

That's one of the points of having high armor, that you can use your money for other things than just replacing players. I don't see anything wrong with that unless it makes high AV overpowered. Is high AV overpowered? I don't know but most people seem to say that speed kills and armor sucks...

Low armored elves should be glad that they can afford replacing players at all in the new ruleset. When spiralling expenses was around it was barely possible for wood elves to even afford 11 players at high TV. So all in all they have been helped a lot in the new ruleset despite the fact that their opponents might be able to spend money on inducements more often than them.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:

That doesn't really matter since blackbox doesn't have the goal of creating equal matchups (in terms of equal chance of winning) in the first place. If it did it would implement TV++.

That's true and it's a flaw in a competitive division. Anyway, the fact that a formula is used to arrange a match suggests that it tries to arrange balanced matches, but, since the community is small, rather than not finding a match at all the scheduler arranges sometimes unbalanced matches (hence the warning in the division description).
If balance were not a factor then the Box would have no rookie protection and the TV/number of games played would not matter.
Tricktickler wrote:

I don't see that much of a problem myself considering the games are often unequal in the first place. If you want games to be perfectly equal, then you should start advocating TV++.

True, but the fact that games are already unbalanced due to various factors is not an excuse to be blind about inducements abuse.

Tricktickler wrote:
That's one of the points of having high armor, that you can use your money for other things than just replacing players. I see nothing wrong with that unless it makes high AV overpowered. Is high AV overpowered? Most people seem to say that speed kills and armor sucks...

I never said that high AV is overpowered, my point was simply that having some cash to spend doesn't mean that the coach deserved it thanks to his "management skill", but just because he didn't need to replace players as often as squishy teams.

Tricktickler wrote:
Low armored elves should be glad that they can afford replacing players at all in the new ruleset. When spiralling expenses was around it was barely possible for wood elves to even afford 11 players at high TV. So all in all they have been helped a lot in the new ruleset despite the fact that their opponents might be able to spend money on inducements more often than them.

For sure PO removal has helped Elves, especially at low-mid TV (I remember lot of Humans at 1400 TV when I was playing my EU in CRP).
About having 11 players at high TV: maybe it's me but I rarely have healthy 11 players at high TV, most of times my Elves are crippled (and fired) before they reach high TV.
Not to mention that Tackle is more common now and that the Wizard is not implemented.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Apr 22, 2018 - 16:34; edited 2 times in total
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 15:41 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I never said that high AV is overpowered, my point was simply that having some cash to spend doesn't mean that the coach deserved it thanks to his "management skill", but just because he didn't need to replace players as often as squishy teams.

Management skills come into play, as do AV and luck. But yeah, some races get to play with extra cash more often, while others are just happy to maintain a stable roster, and if they can drop 50k for a card once in a while, more power to 'em. This is part of the new balance. Does this new balance work? I honestly don't know, because the environment is just beginning to mature.

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 18:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Nachtogen wrote:
To come to the point, that's just bad sportsmanship. Everything more than that 50k is lame. And in most cases, if you have a fair game, even that 50k might be too much.

With the expensive mistakes I think spending over 100k will be rare. That said when Wizard comes in I can see people saving for that if they don't need to replace players. That will be a bummer for their opponents.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 19:13 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:

With the expensive mistakes I think spending over 100k will be rare. That said when Wizard comes in I can see people saving for that if they don't need to replace players. That will be a bummer for their opponents.

Yes, that's a potential issue, at 150,000 the Wizard is probably too cheap.
I guess that 200,000 would be a better price (especially because it would be exactly 1,000 higher than the first 100-199k Expensive Mistakes step).

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Jopotzuki



Joined: Oct 07, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it is bad sportsmanship when you complain about using money being bad sportsmansip. This thing is like t16 fouling all over.

Personally I think everything written in the rules is completely fine. If my legend dies in the hands of an overdog star player or a t16 foul, it is ok! Remember people we are playing this game against each other, not as a co-op to build us all 2000+tv teams.

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Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 20:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
That's true and it's a flaw in a competitive division. Anyway, the fact that a formula is used to arrange a match suggests that it tries to arrange balanced matches, but, since the community is small, rather than not finding a match at all the scheduler arranges sometimes unbalanced matches (hence the warning in the division description).
If balance were not a factor then the Box would have no rookie protection and the TV/number of games played would not matter.

True, but the fact that games are already unbalanced due to various factors is not an excuse to be blind about inducements abuse.

I wouldn't call it abuse to spend money on inducements but I agree with you that some precision is lost in the matchmaking formula when cash-bought inducements are not calculated beforehand. But as I said in my last post I don't think that's a very big deal myself. It also seems quite hard to find a solution for it, so I guess people will have to live with it. But it's wrong to say that GW did a bad job writing the rule just because the rule isn't perfectly adapted to the current blackbox formula when the rule is a big improvement over what we had in CRP in all other ways. So I'm still looking for a strong argument why the new rule is bad. Maybe it's a bit to powerful but nothing gamebreaking I think. If the wizard comes back however things might actually become broken because with the new rule it would be possibe to induce a wizard very often and it wouldn't be fun to have 50% of all games decided by a single dice roll. But here it is the wizard that should be blamed first hand rather than the rule.

Quote:
For sure PO removal has helped Elves, especially at low-mid TV (I remember lot of Humans at 1400 TV when I was playing my EU in CRP).
About having 11 players at high TV: maybe it's me but I rarely have healthy 11 players at high TV, most of times my Elves are crippled (and fired) before they reach high TV.
Not to mention that Tackle is more common now and that the Wizard is not implemented.

All teams have gotten increased income thanks to the removal of spiralling expenses. Elves will use the increased income to get 11 players and even some reserves, bash will use the increased income to buy inducements now and then. Who has the most use of the increased income? Of course the elves since they use it on stuff that lasts for several games and is thus more bang of the buck than using it on things that only last one game. It's more important to have a full team and some reserves (long term stability) than getting extra inducements now and then in individual games. So elves have profited most on these two rule changes.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 21:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Tricktickler wrote:

All teams have gotten increased income thanks to the removal of spiralling expenses.

This is true only if you consider teams with TV 1750 or higher.
I guess that the majority of elf matches in the Box takes place at lower than 1750 TV.
Tricktickler wrote:
Elves will use the increased income to get 11 players and even some reserves,

If Elves can have some reserves it's more due to lack of PO than to removal of Spiralling Expenses, I think.
Losing 10k or 20k from the winnings was not terrible, while being cpombed/tacklepombed it was, and it happened even at TVs lower than 1750 (as I well know).
Tricktickler wrote:

It's more important to have a full team and some reserves (long term stability) than getting extra inducements now and then in individual games. So elves have profited most on these two rule changes.

Again you don't consider that, when a bash (or not bash) team buys some inducements with its own cash before a game starts this meta-advantage is not taken into account by the matchmaking, while if a elf team carries some reserves this TV will be calculated and it might lead to play vs a team with more skills countering the elves' dodge and agility, not necessarily so advantageous.
This will be more true when the Wizard will be back.

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NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 21:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Most of the time I play fumbbl, I play my ranked Slann team (3070 TV at the moment). I'm always the overdog, but I never spend my few bucks (150k at the moment) for buying inducements. I might just have to replace a player after the game so I like to have some reserves.

With a TV that high it's also really difficult building up huge amounts of money. I used to have enormous amounts of reserves, but I decided at some point that the game is more fun with a complete roster of 16 players instead of having just 11 or 12.

So I can simply say: spend your money for your team not your inducements, you might win all the same and yout opponent doesn't think that you play unfair.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 10:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I’d say play it as you find it until FUMBBL gets around to following the actual rule (GW have said an FAQ item is coming and BB2016 inducements are supposed to work as they did in CRP). It feels funky, but I guess everyone knows how the site currently handles it.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 10:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
...but I guess everyone knows how the site currently handles it.


They sure don't. Mr. Green

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 10:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Fair enough. Everyone learns how the site handles it after it happens to them the first time. Better?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 12:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
Fair enough. Everyone learns how the site handles it after it happens to them the first time. Better?


LOL. Better. But still wrong.

I thought I already posted it in this thread but it must have been another.

No. Some people just don't get it. Some people who do "know" still get bamboozled when they see that they have enough inducement cash to buy babes or a bribe. Then they complain to their commissioner that the league options or a site bug stole their winnings.

Commish: "You got your winnings"
Coach: "No I didn't. I don't have any more money than I had before".
Commish: "It appears that your winnings just replaced the money that you spent on inducements"
Coach: "I didn't spend my own money on inducements. why would I do that?"
Commish: *sigh*

Most of them seem to get it after the second time though. Mr. Green

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