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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
27%
 27%  [ 39 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
25%
 25%  [ 36 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
12%
 12%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
34%
 34%  [ 49 ]
Total Votes : 141


Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 13:58 Reply with quote Back to top

haha, away for a year, come back and Matt is still ranting about Slann Blitzers and Black box

Very Happy

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 14:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Some things never change, welcome back!
Razz

P.S. Please unlock Avelorn, I want to play it!

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Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 14:02 Reply with quote Back to top

very soon Wink
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 17:59 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:

If I used Ranked the way MOST coaches do I would win more like 44% of the time... maybe more.

Play in the Box then, your win rate will be way more meaningful there.
Weresquid wrote:
I like dodge first, but then ive no idea. Ss? Sure hands? Catch? Pass on doubles? Or just blodge it up? I dont like pro since i like to load up on rerolls. What does the brain trust say?

Blodge, Side Step, Sure Hands, then Sure Feet, Sprint or cycle. Double is generally Guard, but I tried Pass too on Catchers.
Diving Tackle is another option.



I DO Play in the BOX kinda... in fact I play in a tougher environment than the Box SOMETIMES. In fact, I invented the environment tougher than the Box before there even WAS a Box.
When I stick my team on RANKED GAME FINDER with the intent on accepting the 1st game offered no matter what the offer is I am playing in a tougher environment than the Box.

I am getting cherry picked by the PIMPED RANKED TEAMS that so many of the guys in the BOX are SO AFRAID of seeing in the BOX every now and then. So afraid of them being able to crossover from Ranked to Box and back to Ranked as often as those PIMPED teams would like. There are several pages of these guys talking about how AFRAID they are of the PIMPED teams of Ranked.

Although I also use Ranked the way some use League when I am trying to learn something. Like how to use a weird team I don't know how to coach. That sure hurts my WIN rate.
I also use it on HOW TO beat those teams that are weird I can't figure out how to beat, yet. Or how to handle some bad match-ups so I would be better against them in Tournaments later. I've got periods of 10 to 15 games where ALL I would face are Lizards or Necro or Orcs or Chaos or Elves ON PURPOSE knowing I was going to lose because at the time I SUCKED at facing that roster. That really hurts my win rate.

But apparently... to SOME... my win rate only matters when seen through some FALSE cherry picking and still losing narrative they have imagined BECAUSE they have NO SUFFICENT ARGUMENT to refute my advice on tactics and strategy. PROBABLY because THAT is how THEY play in the Ranked Division

I assure you... when I do cherry pick... and I do THAT too (I live a varied and exciting life in Ranked and can almost NEVER get the time to play in the actual BOX unfortunately)... I assure you I WIN those games NUffle willing.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 18:04 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
AG3 and Dodge is less effective than AG3 Leap and Very Long Legs in movement and evading your opponent.


THIS, good SIR, is plain WRONG.

Dodge and Leap are COMPLEMENTARY.

It’s like walking and chewing bubble GUM.

Have you ever chewed bubble gum while WALKING?

FUN TIMES.

Same for Leap and DODGE.

You Leap in the cage, POP the ball, follow up, then DODGE.

You DODGE out of a tackle zone to go get the ball by then leaping.

You LEAP across the LOS then DODGE.

FUN TIMES.

Give it some THOUGHT.



Well... you can Leap and Dodge... I'll Leap and Sure Hands.

And while you are failing to pick up the ball in multiple TZs I will secure that ball easily and still find a 2+ roll that gets me back out of that cage safely.

Give it some ACTUAL thought.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 18:08 Reply with quote Back to top

If you play in your Ranked self-made-tougher environment then you should rack easy wins in the Box, but your Box win rate shows you lose more in the Box.
Really weird.

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Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 18:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Tbh I was just being lazy, and doing the whole "sure if blodge is overrated you'd win more without it, but er you don't..." thing. It's not really a point. Btw I agree 100% with what you wrote about the american football analogy before that post. I almost never agree with you so i thought i'd mention it Very Happy


In terms of linemen i don't disagree that taking dodge on a double is probably not worth it on Slann. Guard or MB is going to get more mileage (and possibly MB over guard because this allows you to skip taking MB on the blitzers and keep them as pure utlity sackers/covereage players). This is even more true with PO being gone, so a linefrog with MB is just as good at being a "hitter" as a slann blitzer, and no longer requires a second double to keep parity later.
I'm not so big on pro, but reality is, if you get them wrestle then the progression of strip ball, dauntless, tackle (in whatever order the team needs or you prefer); should one live so long that pro becomes an option, then sure it works. But for me it's not something I'd seek out - pro on non-turnovers (eg. vamp bloodlust/gaze) I can accept as a merit, but spamming pro to chase bad dice on turnovers isn't for me. I do appreciate that a highly levelled slann player may enter "wardancer zone" where you burn the TRR early in the move but would want a reroll later, so as said, maybe at 5+ skills.

But imo, catchers and blitzers should seek to blodge (or wrodge) asap. There's just too many inherent dicerolls every turn to not grab the reroll skills on the players who have them on normal access - in addition, a blodgestep or blodgefirm DT player is about 100x more irritating than one without dodge.
Catchers are just too easily removed without protection, in addition to performing very risky sequences as their normal routine, so again I'd favour rr skills.

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Jeffro



Joined: Jan 22, 2009

Post   Posted: May 17, 2018 - 19:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
thoralf wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
AG3 and Dodge is less effective than AG3 Leap and Very Long Legs in movement and evading your opponent.


THIS, good SIR, is plain WRONG.

Dodge and Leap are COMPLEMENTARY.

It’s like walking and chewing bubble GUM.

Have you ever chewed bubble gum while WALKING?

FUN TIMES.

Same for Leap and DODGE.

You Leap in the cage, POP the ball, follow up, then DODGE.

You DODGE out of a tackle zone to go get the ball by then leaping.

You LEAP across the LOS then DODGE.

FUN TIMES.

Give it some THOUGHT.



Well... you can Leap and Dodge... I'll Leap and Sure Hands.

And while you are failing to pick up the ball in multiple TZs I will secure that ball easily and still find a 2+ roll that gets me back out of that cage safely.

Give it some ACTUAL thought.


Ladies... you're both pretty.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 18, 2018 - 06:05 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If you play in your Ranked self-made-tougher environment then you should rack easy wins in the Box, but your Box win rate shows you lose more in the Box.
Really weird.



You must have missed the part where I admit that I ALSO cherry pick in Ranked sometimes too. That probably helps increase my win rate in Ranked.

I would play more in the BOX. But it isn't very active when I have time to play. AND that tends to mean that my favorite teams end to be in Ranked because that is where I can find the most games.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 18, 2018 - 06:07 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If you play in your Ranked self-made-tougher environment then you should rack easy wins in the Box, but your Box win rate shows you lose more in the Box.
Really weird.


Weirder than that zero tourneys won thing?
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 18, 2018 - 06:38 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Tbh I was just being lazy, and doing the whole "sure if blodge is overrated you'd win more without it, but er you don't..." thing. It's not really a point. Btw I agree 100% with what you wrote about the american football analogy before that post. I almost never agree with you so i thought i'd mention it Very Happy


In terms of linemen i don't disagree that taking dodge on a double is probably not worth it on Slann. Guard or MB is going to get more mileage (and possibly MB over guard because this allows you to skip taking MB on the blitzers and keep them as pure utlity sackers/covereage players). This is even more true with PO being gone, so a linefrog with MB is just as good at being a "hitter" as a slann blitzer, and no longer requires a second double to keep parity later.
I'm not so big on pro, but reality is, if you get them wrestle then the progression of strip ball, dauntless, tackle (in whatever order the team needs or you prefer); should one live so long that pro becomes an option, then sure it works. But for me it's not something I'd seek out - pro on non-turnovers (eg. vamp bloodlust/gaze) I can accept as a merit, but spamming pro to chase bad dice on turnovers isn't for me. I do appreciate that a highly levelled slann player may enter "wardancer zone" where you burn the TRR early in the move but would want a reroll later, so as said, maybe at 5+ skills.

But imo, catchers and blitzers should seek to blodge (or wrodge) asap. There's just too many inherent dicerolls every turn to not grab the reroll skills on the players who have them on normal access - in addition, a blodgestep or blodgefirm DT player is about 100x more irritating than one without dodge.
Catchers are just too easily removed without protection, in addition to performing very risky sequences as their normal routine, so again I'd favour rr skills.



It's all good man. I bite back. But I don't bother to see who wrote it to avoid the beef.
Anyways...

Think about this... you say about PRO that it is a skill for "chasing bad dice on turnovers".
But then you champion Reroll skills... well... what is it that those Reroll skills do?
They chase after bad dice on turnovers.

The difference being the RR skills only chase after SPECIFIC bad dice on turnovers.
Pro chases after ANY bad dice you have at ANY point.

Granted Dodge and Sure Hands ARE a bit more than RR skills.
But think it through... WHICH is a better use of TV?

Pro = 1/2 of Sure Feet, Pass, Catch, Dodge, Sure Hands
Pro works on GFIs, Blocks, Pick Ups, Passes, Catches. That's like ALL THE ROLLS!!!

Pro assists with Leap (great for players with Leap), Jump Up (great for slow teams and teams that need a little help in a scrum), Dauntless (great for ST2 guys like Slann Catchers), Sprint (great for slow teams)
It is everywhere when you need it and it only costs 20TV and only takes up 1 skill slot.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 18, 2018 - 07:16 Reply with quote Back to top

As you pointed out, the difference is obvious. Youre trading specificity of reroll with surety of use in for multiple applicability with half surety. Pro can be fun and useful but...its still kinda meh. To me it is best used for nom automatic turnover rerolls like Bloodlust and Wild Animal.

Ive done few a Pro first skill elf teams and they work but theyre so much harder.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 18, 2018 - 07:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Jeffro wrote:
Ladies... you're both pretty.


PRETTY, perhaps.

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There is always Sneaky Git.
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: May 18, 2018 - 08:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Fascinating game of theory-bowl here. Would love to see it played by two coaches with some actual Slann experience. This one if being fought by one coach with 17 Slann games and another with 54.

All that time writing long-arse forum posts might have been better spent playing some games with froggies IMHO.

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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: May 18, 2018 - 09:10 Reply with quote Back to top

For all the 'appendage' measuring people do around here you'd think they were chess players...
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