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ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 08, 2018 - 12:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with the consensus here that each team has some concerns particular to them which means that what's easiest to coach depends on the strengths and preferences of the coaches. And e.g a team that's easy for a beginner to get a handle on is not necessarily the same as a team that's easy for a more experienced coach to get the most out of.

But still, not all teams are created equal.

Elves of all kinds have to know what risks to take when (e.g just because you can pass for a score, or dodge in for a sack, doesn't always mean you should), and how to best avoid contact while still doing useful things, so as not to get smashed. If they do get smashed it can be hard to recover because the players are expensive to replace.

But Dark Elves and High Elves are less vulnerable than Pro and Wood elves, because they have more AV 8.

Orcs, Dwarves and Undead of various kinds are more resilient and reliable, but have to be good at positioning, forward planning and clock management so as not to be outmaneuvered.

But Chaos Dwarves have much of this strength and reliability while also having more speed to recover position or move the ball. Necromantic teams have their amazing wolves for blitzing, safety and running in the ball.

Conversely, Khemri have the strength, but are less durable, have fewer skills on more expensive positionals, and are all AG 2, meaning they're basically Undead Hard Mode. (They have unique upsides as well but you have to really know what you're doing in order to take advantage of them).

Humans are well rounded. They have lots of skills, and stats that let them do a little bit of everything. The hard thing with them is to know how to adapt your play to exploit the opposition's weakness - if you play the same game no matter who you're facing you're unlikely to do well. But still, I'd say they're overall a rather forgiving team.

Skaven are fast, cheap and not hurting for skills. They can often score almost at will. But they need a coach who knows when not to score, as well as how to protect key players, avoid unnecessary contact without the advantage of elven agility or amazon dodging, keep playing when outnumbered without losing his nerve, and take risks when the reward merits it. In short an easy team to put on the pitch and play with but a really hard team to coach well.

Amazons and Norse start with great skills, but lots of Speed 6 AV 7. While they're forgiving in some ways, they require good strategy and positioning because they need to run and bash while also avoiding getting bashed back much - their AV 7 can't take it.

But Amazons get a lot of Block as well as Dodge to start, while Norse have less access to Dodge. And Dodge is more useful defensively, both to dodge away and reposition, and to avoid knockdowns since many opposing players won't have Block/Wrestle to start and will hesitate to take a Both Down anyway. Therefore, I think Amazons are the easiest team to coach at low TV/for a beginner. But conversely, as TVs rise their starting skills are less of an advantage and their mediocre stats hurt more, so it becomes harder and harder to keep doing well with them.

Lizardmen can be a powerhouse team, but with few starting skills and very extreme stats, a coach has to know what they're about - I'd say they're among the harder teams to coach, while still being quite powerful once you learn the art of putting the right lizard in the right place at the right time.

Slann, Chaos and Chaos Pact teams, while they might seem like a grab-bag without much in common, all start out with middle-of-the-road stats and rather specialized skills, but have great skill access that makes them powerhouses once they're developed. I'd say they're all among the harder teams to coach well, if you start with a fresh team.

And of course, Stunties, Underworld and Vampire teams are just flat-out harder to coach than others. More negatraits, less reliability, expensive rerolls, dubious stats... not to say these teams don't have their upsides or can't be powerful in the right hands but knowing what you're doing is a necessity with them even moreso than with other "hard" teams.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 08, 2018 - 14:16 Reply with quote Back to top

One important thing to consider is the TV: strong teams at low TV generally are weaker at high TV (for example Norse and Amazons) while weak teams at low TV but with good development potential (G,S,M skill access) like Chaos and Nurgle are stronger at high TV.
So, the team difficulty is related not only to the race you choose, but to the TV at which you play that race.
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 08, 2018 - 17:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Edit: i tried to list this thinking both early tv and high tv.. and very much from "medium skill level coach"-pov

List is probably quite biased


Easy:
Amazon: (might teach positioning and clock management since ma6 is quite slow)

Chorf: (dunno what this can teach.. if carrier is hobbo then maybe clock management but if bull has the ball not sure... maybe without Break Tackle might teach you to position in a way you won't get stuck and can free your BC bull)

Dark elves: 2 rr might be a pain early but it's ag4 all over and could even start with one dodge+frenzy if you swap blitzer into witch (might teach rr-restraining.. don't waste it on 1st failed dodge.. also teaches run-to-score-offense.. try to avoid passing and handing over)

Dorf: Might be actually "mid" depending how you play.. team is strong but it has its weaknesses even early on. (Will teach clock management, also teaches positioning and importance of guard[spam])

Orcs: Similar to humans but better at bashing. (Teaches basics but can also teach other stuff later on during coaches learningroad.. like clock management, block with block-priority.. and other stuff)

Skaven: Could be middle-guys too since they are bit fragile. If you have troubles of keeping players from getting hurt then for sure this one belongs to middle instead of easy. (Will teach how to steal ball and run.. also some fodder-control.. not only for LOS but also how to screen to protect positionals)

Undead: They have everything from dodge to block to str and cheap fodder. (Teaches something i'd like to see are between basics and advanced coaching.. i don't recommend it for new guys since i feel like undead can teach bad habits and new people might suffer a bit with lack of block and mix of slow players.. it's strong team.. it will teach the advantages of this teams tools like dodge, block and it's safe way to learn to use advantage of high str pieces)

Woodies: This, like skaven, could go to mid too if its hard to avoid not getting guys cassed all the time. Elves don't need many players to do some work and especially woodies with all that dodge, mobility, agility and leap can do always something. (Teaches to plan turns around sacking, maybe some rr-refrainment, maybe some clock management - not only during your offense, that is easy for this team, but more during defending since you wanna have that availability to score if steal is successfull.. and even more important than watching clock is also watching mancount.. sure they can do things with only 2 elves on field BUT it's much better to try and keep more on pitch so you can do the plays needed.. and also keep in mind how next half works.. it teaches to think "if this fails and this guy is out next half/drive, can i still win")


Mid:
Chaos: (starts hard because of no block but gets easier further it gets.. might teach.. umm... to kill and destroy? early on teaches priority management)

Renegades: -||-

Elven U: Armor breaks alot.. might be best 2 turner team and blitzers are really great. Other than that might be worst elves out there. (Will teach desperate moves you have to do undermanned.. might teach some other elf-stuff too).

High Elf: I like dark elves much more but i have better record with high elves. The ma8 with (mostly) av8 is a great mix and it can do mix of both darkie and pro-elf style plays (teaches agilityplays.. mainplan should be running but you have passplay as a backup if running does't work.. just don't learn to rely on it)

Human: Humans have lilbit of everything but really are excellent in any. I like them best as elven-counters since they get many mb-tackle blitzers that can hunt elves around the field. (Teaches basics of both bash and ball.. not really well but i guess it does that decently)

Khemri: Teaches low-ag plays. (Teaches how to position in a way you can free low ag players with blocks to blitz, assist or do other stuff like mark or screen)

Lizzies: They are good BUT i don't think its something that new or even mid-level player really gets. (Teaches advanced positioning, covering your weakest guys and positioning in a way you can free low ag players in case you need them somewhere [to blitz, assist, mark, stand one someones way.. etc])

Necro: As good as necro is i find out 2 rerolls and not-that-many-block is bit iffy. Early on it loses with lack of str to many teams and it is mix of slow and fast which limits its plays a bit. But it comes much stronger (i'd say stronger than undead) at higher tv. (Teaches rr-restraining, tool-using [like frenzy and SF] and positioning)

Norse: Glasscannons. (Teaches frenzyplays.. maybe even clever surfing and chainplays.. might also teach importance of 1d control.. i could put these on "easy" category too but longer you develop them the more they start to break and games end up becoming more and more difficult)

Nurgle: Hard to start with, definitely would put these on hard category if they wouldn't develop to be maybe the best team in the game at high tv. (Will teach rr-refrainment, how to spread your positioning [mostly defending against agilityplays], priority-control and a lot more basic&advanced stuff)


Hard:
Goblin: Play only if you play them for fun. (Teaches.... secret weapons and bribes?)

Fling: This one for funzies too. (Teaches how ma5 works and importance of 3d blocks.. also they can foul and some coaches throw flings like "bombs" at carrier which are talents in itself to learn)

Ogre: Why even play these? (Will teach you to lose, will teach how twitchy works.. will teach negatraits... why would you wanna hurt yourself?.. well.. teaching how to take a loss can be a good thing in long term)

Slann: Jumping is nasty, k? There are pretty much 2 tactics; either you aim to +3 1d blitz ballcarrier every turn (if you get guard with ag4 or carrier is st2 then 2d) or then you go "the woodie route" and mostly try and slow opposition down trying to push them in favorable position so you have better way to pick ball after successfull sack. (Will teach rr-refrainment.. most teams that teach it will teach how to spread them during whole half.. slann kinda teaches how to decide your turn around 1rr.. going from "should i use it this turn" to "if this action fails and i use rr on this action, do i change my plan and blitzing target")

UW: Great killteam. (Teaches to protect your killers, to foul and probably some positioning stuff other teams could teach too)

Vampire: (Teaches similar things to slann, just that instead of sack-leaps you try and get a hypnogaze-route to ballcarrier.. probably you won't spam ballcarrier-blitz every turn and mostly you go more like long-term-when-do-i-make-a-sack-in-this-half.. also teaches thrall-refraining and positioning vampires in a way that he could stand still for 2 turns [for example on turn 3 you think; "hmm, that guy will probably blitz, if i more that other guy there, i could try and move him after turn 4 blitz but if i use rr on blitz is it ok if he stays there"])
Magicporncup



Joined: Sep 30, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 08, 2018 - 18:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Interresting answers. Thanks everyone. I'll try to focus on some Khemri, trying to improve the positional aspect =).
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 09, 2018 - 18:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I actually think if you want to improve beyond your current state you should play a team for longer than you currently do - you're predominantly playing low tv games with low skill teams, which is fine, but it does mean that realistically you're learning to leverage the stats of your team against others for the most part. Increasing opposition player skills may lead you out of your comfort zone a bit in addition to leading to you playing at TVs that actually don't suit the race you're using, which will hurt your winrate a bit, but will ultimately improve your game once you adapt strategies to deal with that.

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denthegod



Joined: May 16, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 09, 2018 - 21:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I actually bought this game on PS4 not really knowing much about it. As a beginner I went to the forums and learned about some of the races and this is how I started out:

Note: My mistake was NOT playing the campaign mode..... I'm an idiot like that. Make sure you play the campaign mode first.

- First team was Chaos. I didn't know about the rules but a lot of people said beating the crap out of the other teams is kind of fun (it is). With Chaos I learned a lot about how the dice rolls worked. I also learned about strength and armor. While beating the crap out of other teams was fun I realized I still have to know how to score consistently instead of closing my eyes and hoping for the best with the Chaos team so.....
- Second team was the Elven Union. With Elves I actually learned about movement and armor. I also learned strategic plays and the passing game. Now I mixed together what I learned and.....

I feel the best team to start out with is the orcs. I feel like they are a little of everything. They're pretty good at knocking people around, they can run the ball, and they can somewhat pass and catch. Of course if I'm wrong about anything here someone please correct me.

Now that I have played the game for a while I personally like the Vampire team but that's only because I find it just as fun to watch the team implode as it is to win with them.
Magicporncup



Joined: Sep 30, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 09, 2018 - 22:09 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
I actually think if you want to improve beyond your current state you should play a team for longer than you currently do - you're predominantly playing low tv games with low skill teams, which is fine, but it does mean that realistically you're learning to leverage the stats of your team against others for the most part. Increasing opposition player skills may lead you out of your comfort zone a bit in addition to leading to you playing at TVs that actually don't suit the race you're using, which will hurt your winrate a bit, but will ultimately improve your game once you adapt strategies to deal with that.


Yea thanks fot the feedback. I have to agree that i never played anything over 1500, maybe even 1400...
Seems like i play to play unskilled teams, and i have problems to keep playing the same team. I'll give a try to up a khemri up to 1500+ ! That would be a first challenge Wink
FinnDiesel



Joined: Mar 07, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2018 - 01:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Just look at the classing of the teams, as tiers on the NAF site.It is based off the general win stats and the players and positionals it self (including price)

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