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Poll
If it were up to you, Fumbbl R and B would...
Add all 3
22%
 22%  [ 34 ]
Add none
37%
 37%  [ 57 ]
Add just Khorne
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Add just Bretons
5%
 5%  [ 8 ]
Add just Simyin
1%
 1%  [ 3 ]
Add all BUT Khorne
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
Add all BUT Bretons
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
Add all BUT Simyin
27%
 27%  [ 42 ]
Total Votes : 151


Christy



Joined: Jul 19, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 15:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Honestly I don't think any of this should be anti plasmoid. I certainly don't agree with his roster but it is a good starting point and I am not sure anyone has quite cracked it completely.

I think an issue is they are over described for war in the fluff. If you see the current human teams. Amazon- little in the way of warhammer fluff to deviate from.
Norse - a bit more but not a massive of pre existing fluff. A tribal structure of people who like yo fight fits into blood bowl well IMO as well.

Humans- they are just a human blood bowl team and designed as such with little thought to wfb fluff. They are not the empire (not specifically).

Bret's are far more prescribed in terms of fluff. Personally I think it should start as a human team and have changes to the roster from there with the focus on blood bowl fluff instead of an army.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 17:30
FUMBBL Staff
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To tie back to this thread, I posted a blog entry with my official, if a bit lengthy, stance on this topic.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 20:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Balle2000 wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
I'd certainly be ok with Khorne and Bretonnian being added to the official lists.

-1

Are you okay, mouse? Smile They both need from-scratch makeovers.


Well when I said that I meant Khorne and Bretonnians as races; not the rosters that exist now. I'm as anti as either of them being made official as anybody could be.

I think though both (rosters) would be acceptable to me (personally) with about 25% change or less.

As for races.....neither would be my first choice, however I personally don't have a problem with either.

I can't see a Khorne list that isn't problematic and is adding a Warhammer race..........a very traditionally swordy warhammer race what people want? Probably not the fashion right now.

I think there are better ideas.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 21:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah, fair enough.

*cancels doctor appointment*
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 17, 2018 - 21:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
To tie back to this thread, I posted a blog entry with my official, if a bit lengthy, stance on this topic.

Very interesting read. Thank you for the insight.
DrPoods



Joined: Nov 14, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2018 - 00:48 Reply with quote Back to top

#BuffOgres2018

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WALGIS



Joined: Mar 08, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 10:03 Reply with quote Back to top

people arguing about officiality amaze me. Fumbll is far from official. its not BB2016 its not NAF. Fumbbl its its own rule set. Talking about new comers this site cannot be more confusing. adding 2-3 teams doesnt change that at all.
No mandatory cards, no new roster for goblins, no stadiums, no refs and so on its just not official. Are you trying to deceive your selves?
The most funny point was saying i had to read lots of homerules when i joined a league, why the hell didnt you read them before joining? ou read what 1 page of rules max? wow it took what 5 mins? so confusing.
Dont lie to your selves and to others.
Khorne and Bretonnians were part of NAF for long time now dont see any reason to not allow them. or remove slann then cause they are not official and if you make an argument that they are fun well other might fin khorne and bretonians fun too. nd you cant make officiality argument if you are leaving slann too.

I thought fumbbl was more welcoming and seeking new things (because see lots of things are stagnant here) but i was wrong.

P.S. you should add add all option and add only khorne and brets. it makes adding brets and khorne the winning option for now atleast.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 11:03 Reply with quote Back to top

The discussion is only about Ranked and Black Box divisions. There is loads of cool stuff in the league division. Mr. Green

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 11:06 Reply with quote Back to top

WALGIS wrote:
people arguing about officiality amaze me. Fumbll is far from official. its not BB2016 its not NAF. Fumbbl its its own rule set. Talking about new comers this site cannot be more confusing. adding 2-3 teams doesnt change that at all.
No mandatory cards, no new roster for goblins, no stadiums, no refs and so on its just not official. Are you trying to deceive your selves?


Just to pick you up on a few things here -
1, Mandatory cards is not part of the new rule set. The designers have been very clear that these are optional extra rules only.
2, New roster for goblin is on its way, as is the new Chaos Pact roster.
3, Stadiums are not part of the official rule set either, they are part of the optional rules only.
4, Referee rules are not part of the official rule set either, they are part of the optional rules only.

So far fumbbl has the inducement phase correct and Expensive mistakes. Plus the player and team name adjustments and human catcher price adjustment, and addition of weeping blades.

It is missing new Goblin players, Chaos Renegades Orc, the new (in)famous coaching staff, new wizard,2 racial wizards, inducement cheeleaders and coaches. But that's all.

The additions to the rule set we currently have are - fummbl is still using CRP cards, and slann.

The rules are being updated to match the new rules set though. But this is a one man coding job so these things take time.

also the khorne and bretonnian roster are available in league.

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SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 12:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I partly agree with WALGIS. FUMBBL was never official rules compliant in its history. In the LRB4 era the lack of all handicaps prevented that and high TV teams were hit by Virus event all the time which deeply affected team management. In the CRP era, the partly implemented and optional special play cards prevented that. So we have one of the optional rules in our rules but its incomplete. It is silly to argue against other official optional rules which would make the game more fun to get excluded only because those are optional.

Now we are here in the BB2016 era, GW released a lot of rules and we are lag behind. 2 years passed and we are between CRP and BB2016 half way. That's all Garion says but the list is long (and I am pretty sure its incomplete). I know that some of the new rules are hard to tackle and Kalimar is gone.

What I will never understand is why we had the cards in the CRP era which could have been the only period for FUMBBL being comliant with the official rules? As it got to me it was because Kalimar loved them and would love to add them all. He made the client, and get the chance to see his toy working but that toy was never finished. Now in the new era it requires a lot of coding hours to achieve official rules comliance, if we will ever get to that which I -- sad to say -- doubt.

We are almost DZ1 compliant now but we are -- again --don't. If special cards would be removed along with most of the star players then we could say that.

Currently we are in a state which could be called as DZ1-NAF, but no again because of the cards. Seriously, drop the special playing cards from the competitive divisions first and that would open the gates to the way of the official rules. If all cards could be added in one step, that would be nice, but incomlete decks of a past era is not cool at all.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 12:28 Reply with quote Back to top

SzieberthAdam wrote:

That's all Garion says but the list is long (and I am pretty sure its incomplete). .


So looking at that list most of it could go live pretty quickly. I think that list is complete tbh, other than star player updates, but they are easy changes.

The bits that require some serious coding are

Doom Diver, IN(famous) coaches, The zapp spell for normal wizards.

The rest of the changes are just roster changes or some very small bits of coding work (like adding cheerleaders to available inducements). I am going to put a full list together but I'm working on the pitch at the moment.

It might be wise for the cards to be an optional league rule only mind as they are CRP cards.


Edit: the big issue with adding a roster like Khorne for example is GW coudl release a totally different official Daemons of Khorne roster at any time, and then we would have a mess, and this is possible, one of the designers made mention of daemon rosters at a games day last year.

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 13:43
FUMBBL Staff
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"Half-way" between CRP and BB2016 isn't exactly fair to me.

As far as I'm concerned, FUMBBL is fully compliant with the official rules from the Core BB2016 rules and Death Zone Season 1. Granted, this full compliance is relatively recent given that it took quite a while for me to get around to adding Guffle Pusmaw to the site despite the FFB client having support for monstrous mouth. Apart from that, we were DZS1 compliant for an extended period of time.

With DZS2, there are 7 star players missing (6 if you count the Swift Twins as one star), (in)famous coaching staff and three positionals ('ooligan, doom diver and a renegade orc lineman).

Of these, I have posted a request for portraits for the stars and positionals (the icons are already there) to be able to add them. FFB needs support for the Swoop skill for the doom diver and the special rule for the Swift twins, and support for the (in)famous coaching staff.

The next step after that will be for me to review the Spike! magazines to evaluate what is "official" and compile a list of what's missing. This includes some wizard stuff for example.

Is this half-way between CRP and BB2016? I don't think so. We got to BB2016 ages ago when we were pretty much DZS1 compliant (I don't put a lot of weight into the single star player that was missing). Half-way between DZS1 and DZS2 issignificantly closer to the actual place we're at.

Now, if you're going to argue of where we are in terms of rules compliance it's better if you do your homework. I spent a number of hours going through the rules recently exactly to get a picture of what's missing and where the site is.

Are we going to ever be 100% compliant? Maybe not, but at least it's good for me to have that as a goal. It doesn't help that the rules are spread out over multiple publications and it's not obvious what's official and what's not, but I do my best with the time and energy I have to get as close as possible.

As for cards, I'm aware we don't have a full set. But an "all or nothing" approach to the rules would be completely silly and we'd never have anything. We have a subset of the current cards more or less, and I'm pretty happy where we are overall here. It could be better, but it's a matter of development time.

With Kalimar being occupied with life in general for quite some time now, I've been the only developer for the site, and beyond spending as much of my free time and energy as I can on the site handling everything from development efforts spread out over multiple aspects of the site (debugging the crash problems we had some time ago, the HTML5 client, various updates for rankings and whatnot, and loads of other minor things), admin stuff (dealing with escalated tickets), tournament related planning and helping out with the start of commentaries for tournament games I'm sure you can appreciate that things aren't necessarily going to be quick. I don't mind doing all that, and I'm extremely happy that people on the site are excited about these things. I have access to the FFB code, and have the technical capability of making changes to it. The core complexity here is that it's a HUGE undertaking to get comfortable enough with the codebase to be able to be productive. I would expect something along the lines of 200-300 hours of pretty intense work. I've simply not felt that I have that time and energy to spend on it as of yet. I'm building myself up to that at some point but I have to choose my battles.

I've directly asked for help with the HTML5 stuff with a very low response rate. Yes, there are some people who have offered to help (including you SzieberthAdam) which I'm grateful for but very little has actually been contributed as of yet. I'm not at all trying to call anyone out here, but the reality of working on something like FUMBBL is that it's very hard work and while people offer to help they all tend to have their own lives, energy levels and personal projects to deal with rather than putting energy into "my" projects. I understand all that, but with people over the years saying I should open-source FUMBBL entirely so other people could help with the code I wanted to actually open-source one particular aspect of what is done here to see what would happen. My hope was to get the html5 client off the ground, and then rely on other contributors to roll it forward. That would give me time to maybe spend more time with the FFB server and get working on implementing the missing parts of the current rules. Swoop, coaching staff, cards. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened and I've added yet another big project onto the pile of things I need to get completed.

I understand you're not out to be critical of what we have here or what I do, but it's honestly quite hard to read "complaints" like this. It reads like you're expecting me to "get it done" without any idea of how much actual work is behind that stuff. Thus this very long response.

I'm not after an apology or "that's not what I meant" because I know that's not what you meant already. I just want to clarify to everyone that FUMBBL is a very very complex system and there are literally tens of thousands hours of work behind this place, and an endless amount of work to be done. The swoop skill might not be the most complicated thing in the world, but with the situation we have here you have to understand that there's a huge amount of work to do even the smallest thing for me in the FFB server. Yes, it's a one-time thing to learn the core FFB code but it's a task that very few people here would understand the scope of.

As for Khorne and Bretonnians, the blog I linked above is still my position on the topic.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 14:08
FUMBBL Staff
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Garion wrote:
1, Mandatory cards is not part of the new rule set. The designers have been very clear that these are optional extra rules only.


Where is this stated? I'm not denying that's the case, but I've never seen anything to that effect, and within the rule book they are definitely not in the 'optional' section.

Was this a twitter U-turn or something to that effect, along the lines of the petty cash one?

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 14:18
FUMBBL Staff
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mister__joshua wrote:
Where is this stated?


I would love to have a FUMBBL "rules committee" that maintained some form of document/note/forum post with what's missing and references to where the official rules can be found.. For now, all I have is my own hand-written summary of rules which for sure is missing things like the cards.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 21, 2018 - 15:12 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
Garion wrote:
1, Mandatory cards is not part of the new rule set. The designers have been very clear that these are optional extra rules only.


Where is this stated? I'm not denying that's the case, but I've never seen anything to that effect, and within the rule book they are definitely not in the 'optional' section.

Was this a twitter U-turn or something to that effect, along the lines of the petty cash one?


http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?p=783019&sid=1a34a63f4fa3ccb3fa95ba626ea8d095#p783019

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