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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that we need to design a coordinated campaign for existing TT and Cyanide coaches who want to up their game in a highly mature format. A bit of differentiation would help bolster our numbers and would also help with retention, because people wouldn't just jump into the water without an awareness that it was supposed to be a shark tank. Informed consent is the difference between a feature and a bug.

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What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
datom



Joined: Mar 22, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 20:31 Reply with quote Back to top

The thing that turns people off Ranked isn't competitive coaches, it's the group of coaches that sit on Gamefinder all day picking any rookie that pops their head in.

I don't mean good players who play all sorts of games including against new players, they're a force for good.

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razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 20:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
That's true. I just meant if you're turned off by competitive coaches ranked might not be the place for you.


*does.the.happy.dance* *confetti.falls* Cool
And we've completed the cycle. Laughing

Now we just need some way to convey this to new coaches who are just arriving on the site, and direct them to a place really intended for them. Right now, when a new coach first creates their account and goes to create their FIRST team, they are told:

"The Ranked division is a competitive, open-play, division where coaches are allowed to choose their opponents (almost) freely.

This division is a good starting place for new coaches"


And I think the point the original poster was trying to make is that it's maybe not a good place for new coaches to start, which seems to have some support. Smile The Academy was apparently shutdown before I started... but I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't have get a few more games than the least used division *cough*Stunty Leeg*cough*. (But again, I know nothing... the Academy was before my time.) But maybe the solution is as simply as directing new folks to play Open [L]eague to start, and try to direct them to 145 Club from there. (But goodness... let us not do that until Gamefinder doesn't try to match regular [L]eague and Secret League teams. Shocked )
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 23:01 Reply with quote Back to top

League would be the best place to start. But...

1. I suspect that it takes longer to find an "open" match in [L]eaugue. (Better than the old [A}cademy though)
2. Non-standard (eg [SL]) teams will probably confuse people
3. If they want to play vs a non-standard team, they can't. Their team gets locked if they try.
4. The name is confusing. People think that [L]eague is only for leagues.
5. There are still cherrypickers in open [L]eague. Though not as many and not as picky as Ranked.

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[SL] Rookie Rumble - Always recruiting - Brand new TV1000 teams only!
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 23:20 Reply with quote Back to top

I think part of the problem is that the player pool on the site isn't that big to begin with and it seems to be disproportionately skewed towards very experienced coaches (as newer coaches are less likely to stick around, once they realize what they are up against).

Also, the longer the site goes on, the further behind a new coach is going to be when they start out, compared to the 'old guard', because the experienced coaches keep on gaining more experience all the time. So, the 'barrier to entry' has gotten bigger. A few years ago, 500-600 games would have made someone 'competitive' in a tourney, now that number may be more like 1500-2000!

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Mattius



Joined: Sep 03, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2018 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
I think part of the problem is that the player pool on the site isn't that big to begin with and it seems to be disproportionately skewed towards very experienced coaches (as newer coaches are less likely to stick around, once they realize what they are up against).

Also, the longer the site goes on, the further behind a new coach is going to be when they start out, compared to the 'old guard', because the experienced coaches keep on gaining more experience all the time. So, the 'barrier to entry' has gotten bigger. A few years ago, 500-600 games would have made someone 'competitive' in a tourney, now that number may be more like 1500-2000!



The good news is blood bowl is booming again at TT level. Hence new coaches will come (especially if we can be more active on areas like reddit etc).

Regarding how to keep them, I do agree removing the part about ranked being the best place to start isn't a bad idea. Maybe when a new player starts they get an automated mail with a link to the tutorial and 145 club? Otherwise we can only do so much, the main focus should be on recruiting new people Smile This can be done.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 00:08 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
I think part of the problem is that the player pool on the site isn't that big to begin with and it seems to be disproportionately skewed towards very experienced coaches (as newer coaches are less likely to stick around, once they realize what they are up against).

Also, the longer the site goes on, the further behind a new coach is going to be when they start out, compared to the 'old guard', because the experienced coaches keep on gaining more experience all the time. So, the 'barrier to entry' has gotten bigger. A few years ago, 500-600 games would have made someone 'competitive' in a tourney, now that number may be more like 1500-2000!


The thing that probably isn't comforting is that it can take anyone anywhere from 100 games to 2000 games to get 'it'. For a lot of folks that predate even me it's accepted that you will eat a lot of dirt before you taste glory and I haven't found a way to assure newer coaches that all the dirt is eventually worth it.
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 00:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I've played 3000 matches and I still probably lose more than I win. *shrug*

But I'm not a strategic genious either.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 00:25 Reply with quote Back to top

MonkeyMan576 wrote:
I've played 3000 matches and I still probably lose more than I win. *shrug*

But I'm not a strategic genious either.


You need more beer and pretzels to unleash the dragon inside you!
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

More than that, obviously.
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 01:59 Reply with quote Back to top

It's been so long since I joined, I can't recall whether I got a "Welcome to FUMBBL" PM or not. I like that idea if it's not a lot of work to do, outlining the places/ways to play BB on FUMBBL with some links, etc.

There will always be coaches who join to test the waters and find out BB isn't for them, can't deal with the randomness or move on to the next thing.

I think the best we can do is to welcome obviously new coaches to the site as you meet them - a good first impression if you will. I'm not against coaches getting picked in R - it happens, and I certainly looked like a nice ripe cherry at one time (maybe still?) but what sticks with me is that most of these experienced coaches were super-nice and we had a good chat and laugh while they won the match without raising too much of a sweat. That kept me sticking around

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 13:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Though, the OP only played four games. It is great when the opponents are "super nice". Though some coaches will just pick the easiest possible opponent and crush them to farm SPPs to build their team. Some people are so anal about their CR or win% that they silently wipe out the opposition without even a "Hi" to start the game. Some of those games can be a pretty miserable experience.

One advantage of the old [A]cademy + old gamefinder was that you could see who was looking without actually joining the gamefinder. Some would call that a disadvantage. It did mean that if you spotted someone in [A]cademy it was a sign that they may want some help. You could then join the game with a different attitude than you might have in a "regular" match.

If I saw someone with zero matches played, I might tell them that I only had time to play the first half. That would be enough to get them started, get used to the client and pass on a few tips. I guess that that might not even be legal in Ranked.

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[SL] Rookie Rumble - Always recruiting - Brand new TV1000 teams only!
MonkeyMan576



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 14:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Not everyone is sociable. Just like in life, you shouldn't let others behavior dictate your own or your enjoyment of the game, in my opinion.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 14:20 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
For a lot of folks that predate even me it's accepted that you will eat a lot of dirt before you taste glory and I haven't found a way to assure newer coaches that all the dirt is eventually worth it.


Yeah I think for really new coaches who are still learning the very basics, there is little to no fun in playing against the average Fumbbler. That's why you really don't get these coaches in Ranked or Box, like, at all. I mean even if someone's CR says "Veteran" they typically have a pretty solid understanding of the rules, they won't usually offer easy surfs, they'll know how to place assists and do 2d Blocks, they'll cage and stall and use their Tackler to hit your Dodge guy. So they will still just steamroll a total beginner.

As a total beginner you need to play against other total beginners so that only works in the context of League, either a scheduled league with your mates (that's how I started) or the 145 Club. Really ideal would be if we could get an actual AI to work and maybe even some sort of tutorial but I guess that's not very likely to happen. I haven't ever played BB2 but I'm guessing it's just a much more convenient place to start if you're completely new...

Of course we all know that the less you understand Blood Bowl, the more frustrating it can be. Some coaches, in time, will drop out, others will continue the way they are, and yet others will develop the urge to become better. And at that point you can come in and show them a perspective, a road to getting better. But you need to wait for them to come around to that point by themselves.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2018 - 16:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think that FUMBBL should cater to total beginners as a gaming venue. I think that if you had just heard of Blood Bowl and started looking for a venue, you would be ill-advised to think you can just jump into an open format (any open format at all) and play a game. You'd probably want to do some research or find a rabbi or something. Our objective regarding this coach is to be found and identified as a badass resource that also functions as a nice stress test or proving ground, with the intention of eventually becoming one of the big fish.

I think we should tailor our message to this coach not as "here's a cool place to learn Blood Bowl," but "here's a cool place to talk to people who really know Blood Bowl, watch awesome games (live or replay), read good stuff, and when you get to the point where you have the basics down pat and want to prove (or improve) yourself, you can play there too."

This has to go hand-in-hand with an emphasis on differentiation re: BB2. At the highest levels, the competition on BB2 has more or less caught up with us, just on account of more monkeys at more typewriters not needing as many years to crank out the sonnets (there's also some overlap and migration). The main skill differential is at the lower end, the end result of which is that open play in the larger and less-established format is softer on one's ego, while the smaller and older format is a better place to thicken your skin and learn fast. In a vacuum, this has not favored us, but we could probably change that.

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What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
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