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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 04, 2018 - 14:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Antithesisoftime wrote:
I think a Lawful Pact team would just end up like Tilea in Secret League


Yep. Call them Tilean Heroes and you are done. No need for any special skills.

I must say I am not a fan of mostly S3 teams having access to a fairly reliable TTM. It is under used by pact in my opinion.

Here is the explanation of the Tilean Team.

'Rationale

The Tilean roster design was originally conceived in mbbl by Plasmoid and has already undergone some play testing. The idea of the team was mainly based on the Dogs of War army book from 5th edition Warhammer, and drew on Warhammer Tilean fluff.

It was an obvious choice to create a good guy Pact team allowing coaches to choose players from some of the 'good' races in the game. The races selected were all in line with the races available for use in Dogs of War armies, the only difficulty was trying to maintain some balance while allowing buying players to work in a way that feels like hiring mercenaries. To do this a 500k cap was put on the mercs and a limit of 1 player for each position. This was to stop teams overloading on High Elf Catchers or any other positional.

In testing the team has performed reasonably well at a low to mid TV, performing slightly better than Chaos Pact. However with further testing we expect this team will not perform as well as Chaos Pact in high TV league play, because their Linemen are so much better.

Finally came selecting the starting stats for the Tilean lineman. We wanted the Av of the lineman to be Av7 again fearing the roster could be too good with a higher Av lineman, but also for fluff reasons, as the linemen's uniform was largely decorative; based on renaissance Italy.

Because of the unique way the roster is created, it can break some of the basic rules of roster creation, much in the same way as Chaos Pact, for this reason they had to be 70k."
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 04, 2018 - 15:46 Reply with quote Back to top

If it has to be the exact mirror image of Pact...

0-1 Treeman (=troll)
0-1 Ogre (=ogre)
0-1 slayer (kinda mino, bear with me)
0-1 Halfling hopeful (=goblin)
0-1 dwarf lineman (=orc)
0-1 high elf lineman (=dark elf lineman)
0-1 norse lineman (the barbarian is a well tested good guy archetype and we need something instead of skaven, also av7)
0-12 human lineman

There's a distinct lack of 0-1 Minotaur equivalent in the good guy teams, you could throw in a Yeti but it seems out of place. Alternatives are the Ulf (not loner though, and kind of a no brainer choice) or the Slayer, which I think fits best that niche, due to background as wanderers, seekers of death and glory, willing to fight alongside other races, Gotrek & felix and whatnot.


It needs animosity on the 4 non basic humans. It also needs some sort of buff to balance the lack of M access, and skill access tweaks in general (mainly just mirroring Pact).

Buff could simply be 50k rerolls, keeping it in line with most good guy teams.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 04, 2018 - 17:32 Reply with quote Back to top

It is not just the lack of Mutation, it is the lack of strength on linemen. Perhaps drop animosity simply due to the lack of M and S access.

Perhaps allow lizardmen on a good team. (But that seems out of place.)
delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 05, 2018 - 00:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
It is not just the lack of Mutation, it is the lack of strength on linemen. Perhaps drop animosity simply due to the lack of M and S access.

Perhaps allow lizardmen on a good team. (But that seems out of place.)


I could see Animosity on a Pact team making sense. But not a good guys team except perhaps on the Dwarf and elf alone (they will not pass to each other). So loose Animosity on everyone else except the two races known to hate each other.

0-12 Lineman 50k 6 3 3 8 honorable G ASP
0-4 Halfling hero 30k 5 2 3 6 honorable, dodge, right stuff, stunty A GSP
0-2 Elf lineman hero 60k 6 3 4 7 animosity, honorable
0-2 Dwarf blocker hero 70k 4 3 2 8 animosity, honorable, block, tackle, thick skull GS AP
0-2 Human blitzer hero 90k 7 3 3 8 honorable, block
0-1 Treeman hero 120k 2 6 1 10 loner, honorable, mighty blow, stand firm, strong arm, take root, thick skull, throw team-mate S GAP
0-8 Re-Roll counters: 70k each
Apothecary: yes
delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 05, 2018 - 01:04 Reply with quote Back to top

0-12 Lineman 50k 6 3 3 8 honorable G ASP
0-2 Halfling hero 30k 5 2 3 6 dodge, right stuff, stunty A GSP
0-1 Elf lineman hero 60k 6 3 4 7 animosity
0-1 Dwarf blocker hero 70k 4 3 2 8 animosity, block, tackle, thick skull GS AP
0-1 Britonian blitzer hero 110k 7 3 3 8 block, catch, Dauntless, Animosity GAP S
0-1 Treeman hero 120k 2 6 1 10 loner, mighty blow, stand firm, strong arm, take root, thick skull, throw team-mate S GAP
0-1 Ogre hero 110k 5 5 2 9 loner, mighty blow, thick skull, throw team-mate S GAP

0-8 Re-Roll counters: 70k each
Apothecary: yes

Ok so tweaking this a bit.

Added the Ogre and normalised the team a bit. Swapped human blitzer with Bretonian blitzer. This is to fill in for the third big guy.
Removed honourable. I like the idea of the skill and I think Blood Bowl needs to think of Enhancement skills, aka skills that make a players current skills really good. Making accurate stack on passers would give human passers a better chance IMHO. (but I digress).
That being said Honourable is WAY too powerful for Big guys.

I am thinking 2x halflings. They are weakish players, but more then 2 they will be picked as a cheapie and 1 seems too few. Good guys are different to pact in that the halflings would work with the team (because they are halflings).

By swapping the Human blitzer with the Bretonian I think the team gets a bit more oomph. He kinda fills in for the Mino, but in a good guy way. I realise they are the major advantage of the Bretonian team (IMHO they should have 5 or 6 of them to make the team suck less), but poaching 1 should do. I can see reasons to keep the Blitzer and reasons to use the Bret.

Alternatively you could get 1 Norse and 1 Amazon instead of the human blitzer (but I don't see the point). I think by having 1 Bretonian blitzer you suddenely open a lot of possibilities but only 1 player to pick them on.
Added Animosity as the Bretonian will hate their teammates.

I have added an Ogre as these are found on both good and evil teams.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 05, 2018 - 06:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Regarding comments by Kondor, Dr Death and Antithesisoftime.

Firstly: I think the Tilean list was probably Plasmoid's best idea. I don't know why I didn't think of it.....I even used to play dogs of war in Warhammer. The reason why I did the Long Drong Slayer icons. I plan to do other Regiments of Renowned in the future too.

Secondly: The fluff and thus the team dynamics of Heroes of Law, Tilea and Chaos Pact are vastly different and so should be the rosters.


Chaos Pact roster was based off of the Chaos Allstars team from a 1990 add on book. The players of the team are the positionals you can get, but with an up to date twist. Also plus the non-fluffy add on of the Orc, which now means you can make the best of Mongrel Horde and Chaos All stars. The Chaos Allstars were a highly successful team.


Heroes of Law is a roster where only the most lawful and good guys can or would join. They are/were a really poor team due to not cheating or being nasty. A really crippling trait for blood bowl. Only the most lawful races could or would play for this team, and due to the above trait they need a neg trait or special rule to replicate this. Also to make them not too powerful. They certainly wouldn't have animosity due to them all being too nice. However possibly bone head due to them being dumb.......but then they would be massively underpowered. So removing fouling and damage skills is the way to go in my opinion.


Now as Kondor stated the Tilean list is based off of the Dogs of War/Regiments of Renowned warhammer list. These guys ARE NOT good guys. They're totally mercenary. They're as neutral as you can get. The Tileans cannot produce top quality blood bowl players themselves. Their linemen are inferior to other human linemen and to make up for it they hire mercenaries to make up for that.


There should be a distinct difference between the 2, however right now there isn't.


When Garion adapted the Tilean list for FUMBBL he wanted to use Elves. The reason being that fluffwise Elves had communities on the coast of Tilea. Later fluff had 'abandoned' communities. However as older fluff tended to be......more fitting we often went with older late 80s fluff rather than more modern fluff.


My argument was that the list should have been based totally off of the DoW latest list from the early 2000s and shouldnt included elves. I believed that rather than having a good element, it was totally mercenary. So; human, norse, dwarf, hobgoblin, halfling and ogres. And then on top of that regiments of the renowned. Having high elves adds too much of a good over mercenary element. But you know a lot of the lists you make are based off of what you feel the feeling should be. And its kind of cool that eleven cultures were living in but separate from Tilean culture. I do think they mess up the feel of the list though.


The other problem is that as stated on the Tilean SL page is that a lot of coaches are breaking the rules when playing them. The core of the team should be the Tilean linemen, made up with mercenary flare/useful players. It should have the feel of useless Tileans and great reliable merc players.


So if you the Tilean list was sorted to play how a DoW list is meant to feel........there's definitely room for both lists. It was always the intention of having the list. http://fumbbl.com/help:HeroOf
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