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MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 04:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm interested to understand how to better play my goblins in Black Box.

Bit of context:

Only In It For The Glory had a fairly brutal first match against another goblin team, where they drew, but took such bad injuries (-ST on the Fanatic, -MA on the Pogo) that TV went down to 860.

That meant it was almost impossible to get scheduled in the Box, because they'd only be able to play teams with a TV between 780 and 940. The only way I could see to get the TV back up to a playable level was to buy an apothecary (which after those injuries seemed sensible for once).

A ST6 Fanatic is a liability because it becomes much harder to get 3 dice blocks from him, but I didn't have the budget to replace him in the short term. I'm also a bit frightened right now about losing more goblins and not being able to replace them, so I've gone up to what feels ludicrous 5 rerolls (because if you do smash all my regular goblins to pieces, I can at least use journeymen to keep my TV in the playable range.

It gets slightly easier now they've played more than 3 games, but there's still the potential to get such an awful kicking that they are rendered unschedulable, and while I'd quite like to retire and start again, I also want to finish my headlong charge through the Black Box Trophy, so admitting defeat is not an option.

With that in mind, how do you play Goblins in the Box?

TV will usually be close to your opponent, so unlike League play where I'll have lots of cash available for inducements, it's likely I won't have many bribes or babes to keep players around.

As I only have 11 players in the team right now, I'm almost guaranteed to start the second half with no more than 9 players (the chainsaw and bomma will have to start on turn 1 and will be sent off at some point, plus there's going to be a few injuries along the way)

In the short term, I'm planning out a very negative, defensive style of play (set up like you were protecting against a 1TTD with everyone as far back as possible and try to minimise injuries so you can survive for another day) but that doesn't suit my usual aggressive Goblin play style. That's more just a way to (hopefully) clamber back up to having a bigger roster so I can have some chance of 11 players on the pitch in the second half.

In the long term, when you have a reasonably healthy Goblin team, how do you deal with being closely matched on TV, and therefore not having (many) bribes available to you? Eg looking at the highest ranked Goblin team in the BBT right now, Endrophil's Gobmode his TV is much higher than I'd usually run Goblins at (1590).

Any thoughts on how you'd adjust your team structure for the Box, or do people not make a big distinction between League and Box Goblin play?
MenonaLoco



Joined: Jan 05, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 06:46 Reply with quote Back to top

1) keep some treasury. ask other low tv box coaches to activate.
2) pray for an ag4 goblin.
3) keep insistir in getting a tv-fake option in box.
4) prepare for suffering.
Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 07:36 Reply with quote Back to top

You might want to spec this guy. His gobbos used to break Fumbbl.

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=773255
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=807059

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Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 08:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd say get a deeper bench. 13 players won't cut it.

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almic85



Joined: May 25, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 10:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with with Mr_Foulscumm, you need more regular gobbos.

You should have enough of them that you don’t need to field any secret weapons on the first drive so you don’t lose them all straight away.

Aside from that you really need to stay TV efficient with the guys you do have or you will end up garaging too much tackle and block.

Basically if a goblin (normal or secret weapon) doesn’t have a double Or plus stat in the first skill you need to really think about sacking them. You can hold on to see what the second skill is one some secret weapons and one or two normal gobbos but that’s about it.

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MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks.

So far:
Building the bench back up. Which is slow... but I hope that in another 5 games or so I should have a full contingent again.
AG4 goblin - got one. Perhaps unfortunately he's a bomma, which means with that AG he's quite reliable at upsetting orcs and other low AG rivals, but as he's a bomma, we see him for one drive.
Preparing for suffering - therapist booked, nine bottles of gin stocked up to drink after matches, wife warned about screaming and shouting. The one turn touchdowns are what keep me (thinking I'm) sane...

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PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 16:11
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Well, I am far from the greatest Goblin player and far from the most experienced. In total i have a 27/14/32 record. 47%. Not great, but all of it in B, so i do know something of The Culture.

Consider Phlebas
Goblins without doubles or stats (not just cheat mode +ag, but block and dp are awesome skills for gobbos) are bloat, you can run 1 or 2 and hope for better on second skill, but every one adds a tackle to the opposition. or a guard. Or mb, Or... you get the picture. You might love Phlebas, but if he is SS and DT, is he bloat? quite likely.

Use of weapons.
I don't think in B you can afford to run all the gobbos weapons, So choose your poison. I prefer the Chainsaw to the bomber, hitting av7, fouling av8 and 9. And of course the Ball and Chain. I use B&C on offense and usually save chainsaw for defense, but he can also be a great distraction on offence. Sometimes its better to use them first half, even if defending. But then probably not start the B&C on the LOS. I hate the bomber, especially as he is the cheapest to rent (often affordable even in B), then comes with accurate, and then after that game you dont have a bomber on the roster, all win.

The State of the Art
Remember FUMBBL has both the 'Ooligan and the Doom Diver. Opinions are still new on both, but can you really afford the 'Ooligan AND the pogo? both 70k for only mild improvement over the standard gobbo, and both pale next to a block, dp or +ag gobbo. DD has looked awesome the time i saw it used against me, both for hitting people and OTTD.

Excession
Some games are going to be OCP, outside context problems, and as such are not usually winnable, so sometimes you have to aim for the draw. Usually by dominating the first half. Don't be afraid to lose and have fun trying. Good mental health and good goblin play go hand in hand. Feel free not to activate after a bad loss, if that's what you need. Play something else.

Look to Windward
TTM is fun, and can work. Use the DD for added chance, but also dont overlook strong arm if its a standard play for you. And note the Troll advice also.

Inversions
Oftent the joy can be in doing whats not expected. The ability to dodge through weak lines moderately effectively should not be overlooked. If they have no tackle, you 'can' just walk through. Your cover 'can' also. Trolls should get Break Tackle first, for the ability to move around when your opponent doesnt think they can or will, can also really help get a TTM off when they mark the troll.
['can'=your home may be at risk if you do not keep up repayments]

Matter
Troll skills. They are your LOS, they are your wall. So Trolls nee to be useful (BT) but also good at being a wall: So while guard and SF are great skills and rarely wasted, Thick Skull should be considered as it accentuates one of the few things they are good at, being there next turn. Always remember RS cant assist RS at RS rolls. But a B&C can, and he is also a good wall/cage component. Sometimes it can help to move him first, then use him as a part of the cage you then form.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 17:25 Reply with quote Back to top

5 rerolls is indeed ludicrous - your loners can't use them (and this includes the trolls) reliably, and most of your team has dodge rerolls inbuilt... all the extra RR really do is boost your TV and in return hand your opponent more G/S skills (and even just block is something you prefer to see much less of).

Goblins are cheap, positionals are not. Even though the looney and bomma cost the same as regular gobbos they play, normally, many less turns. The fanatic, doom diver and ooligan also similarly cost pretty much the price of two goblins. The pogo is similarly something you need to think about in box - is the extra MA and a leap worth the extra cost? It's debatable.

Even the trolls are somewhat overcosted when it comes to TV efficiency - loner, and the fact they are equivalent to almost 4 goblins.

The team looks cheap, but once you evaluate what you actually get you realise you are being, in summation, ripped off.


I'd honestly think about dumping your niggled, -av troll and running one troll for a while to build the bench up.

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ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 17:38
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I've played a lot of goblins in Box, and a litte bit of flings.

My goblins are all about the bloat, big players, records, and the occassional win. Big teams in Box often meet big coaches. Winning is very very hard. And for me very very rare.

Flings in Box Trophy I've deliberately kept low tv. And I've won more. Filthy minmaxer? Maybe. I may have gone through more trees in 16 games than my gobs have in 212, farming. At low tv you meet more newer coaches.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh and one thing - I discussed years back with cdassak about where goblins want their skills to be. Some people like big beefy trolls, I personally now think you want the skills on the trolls to be rather minimal, and you need to go somewhat against convention when it comes to skills on them - break tackle should be a priority as you need to reposition them.

The gobs themselves need: block/wrestle, dp, surehands. statwise: +AG, and +MA. +ST is debatable.

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Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 27, 2019 - 18:55 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
Flings in Box Trophy I've deliberately kept low tv. And I've won more. Filthy minmaxer?

There is no such thing as a minmaxer of a stunty race.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 30, 2019 - 05:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks everyone for all of this. Read most of it, went off and tried to do some of it, think it's improving things (although I then realised all my goblin hijinks had made me build a very stupid Underworld team, and having 5RRs was really teaching me bad habits that infected play with my other teams.

Getting rid of the niggled troll was the first step towards rationality - King Dumb Dumb II could then skill up as I was happier to throw MVPs at somebody who wasn't too dumb to regenerate. First skill was a double so that got him Block, and then it's a dilemma between Guard and Break Tackle when he skills again.

Pogoer went in the bin (I never used Leap with him because on AG3 it felt too risky. But I've now got a ST3 Goblin with Catch and an AG4 Bomma, so the freakshow continues to roll onward.

I've also realised that unlike Purplechest, I love bommas and have a dislike of chainsaws, due to them letting me down so much. And if one bomma is good, then why not two? Smile But that's fine, because the Church of the Goblin is wide, and admits many different viewpoints. But some more trimming of the secret weapons to go, along with shedding that reroll now I'm away from the no-scheduling precipice for now.

Will report back in 10 more games Smile
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