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Poll
Do you de- / not activate if only 4 player draw
Yes
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
No
89%
 89%  [ 67 ]
Yes unless desperate to play
6%
 6%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 75


bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 13:24 Reply with quote Back to top

@bghandras : i understand your point but sometimes you just need to put some people back in their place. It’s not revenge. It’s just what is needed sometimes, unfortunately.

The debate about the scheduler will advance anyway, thanks to this thread or not.
paulhicks



Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

where is the option to superlike chainsaw's comment?

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 13:50 Reply with quote Back to top

bancobat wrote:
@bghandras : i understand your point but sometimes you just need to put some people back in their place. It’s not revenge. It’s just what is needed sometimes, unfortunately.

The debate about the scheduler will advance anyway, thanks to this thread or not.

The word NEED is totally debatable. I understand why you feel that way. But you can easily see that an objective debate absolutely does not need that personal touch.

Disclaimer: No offense intended, i am just trying to convey a point, which is slightly different what i think you understood. I should also eat plenty humble pie, i am no exception.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 14:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Dang I've been impressed by some of the comments on the last couple of pages. A definite step up in thoughtfulness, logic and humility than one often sees. MRT, Harvestmouse, bghandras, thanks for restoring some of my faith in people.
Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 14:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
Dang I've been impressed by some of the comments on the last couple of pages. A definite step up in thoughtfulness, logic and humility than one often sees.


I second this fully!
bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 16:03 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
bancobat wrote:
@bghandras : i understand your point but sometimes you just need to put some people back in their place. It’s not revenge. It’s just what is needed sometimes, unfortunately.

The debate about the scheduler will advance anyway, thanks to this thread or not.

The word NEED is totally debatable. I understand why you feel that way. But you can easily see that an objective debate absolutely does not need that personal touch.

Disclaimer: No offense intended, i am just trying to convey a point, which is slightly different what i think you understood. I should also eat plenty humble pie, i am no exception.


The debate about the word need will be too long and not pertinent here. Don’t get me wrong it happily happen in very few cases, for me the important word was sometimes, not need. In others words if you say we should never put some people back in their place (which is a translate of French expression, sorry about my English), then I disagree.

Was it pertinent here ?
I think yes, you think no, it’s a forum so we just discuss Smile

And about the « naming » thing I probably don’t understand well, I see a difference between naming and insulting or lacking of respect. Mostly when we name the person who initiates the discussion. You open a thread in forum, be prepared to get criticism.
That doesn’t mean I think smallman is a bad guy or else. Just that his past behavior in the box was bad, had bad consequences on some players (excluding me, I think I faced him once) and he should talk about this before complaining about the unfairness of the scheduler. I see your point but in this context it’s just too obvious...

But in any way, that’s just my opinion about this, I will eat humble pie as we all do Smile
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 16:32 Reply with quote Back to top

It can be both justified, yet detrimental to the debate. I know from personal experience, that if i have a strong feel for justice at the moment i post, then it is very hard to put that behind. I guess it boils down which one is more important:
- Stick it to the offender in order to either shame or change him
- Try to agree with the public and drive a discussion about a confined topic

The first point assumes the offender is the cause of all bad. The second suggests that changing one person alone wont solve the situation, but it needs a team / system solution.

As you may have guessed it, i do not think one person makes or breaks a system, so i lean towards the 2nd option (unless i am blinded by my very own sense of justice).

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bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I see your point but are we generally speaking about a guideline or specially about this particular thread ?
we're doing the two things I guess
In any case we are off topic Wink

the box is not like any others system, it's the box on Fumbbl, different from ranked, from capitalism, from whatever system you want. It's a small system with few people in it, so no individual can break it, but some can influence it and make it change. I have the feelings that 2 of the main problem of the box (over min maxing and mono activating killer team) were the result of very few people who were very active. It resulted on pages and pages of debate, changes in the scheduler, coding for the admins...etc, so yes it influenced the system.
Is there a fundamental difference between one people or 2-3 peoples in this case ? I don't think so.

So it was not an "emotional" naming, I felt like you said "an injustice", saw if it was right to be direct and "hard" in this case, and I concluded it was right.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 18:05 Reply with quote Back to top

IMO the 'debate' would have gone differently if someone other than Smallman had asked the question. Maybe, if it hadn't been Matt & myself who continued it. Wink

There are pros and cons of having a cap. But some people do seem to be more interested in sticking it to Smallman than discussing them.

People bring their old grievances from old arguments and obscure the real points that could be made.

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CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 18:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I think arguing that TV isn't an indicator of capability to win is flawed for multiple reasons:
a) As a coach in Ranked, it's the first thing together with race you look at.
b) It's used as the basis for the box for a reason.
c) Even with inducements, TV difference usually translates to a difference in win change. This is by design and intent.

So.. back in the day, there wasn't TV, there was TR. Both are very simple measurements of the status of a team with TV being slightly more nuanced.

But it turns out, that two teams of the same TV (just like with TR) can have vast differences in actual capability of winning a given game.

I think many here are of the opinion, that it would be best to pitch teams against each other that have - on paper - a similar capability to win a given game. In Ranked this is done by both coaches eyeballing the teams. In Blackbox the scheduler needs some input and so TV and race is taken.

So the problem is, that TV seems to be exceptionally gameable especially in the low TV range. The problem lies with a system that's designed for a local league and therefore can't be too complex. It's not the players fault, that TV allows for huge differences in effectiveness.

So why don't we bring back Team Strength? It's way, way, way harder to game than TV and thus makes a much more reliable basis to schedule matches on - both for the Box Scheduler and for Ranked
bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
IMO the 'debate' would have gone differently if someone other than Smallman had asked the question. Maybe, if it hadn't been Matt & myself who continued it. Wink

There are pros and cons of having a cap. But some people do seem to be more interested in sticking it to Smallman than discussing them.

People bring their old grievances from old arguments and obscure the real points that could be made.


One thing doesn't exclude the other.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 18:58 Reply with quote Back to top

bancobat wrote:
koadah wrote:
IMO the 'debate' would have gone differently if someone other than Smallman had asked the question. Maybe, if it hadn't been Matt & myself who continued it. Wink

There are pros and cons of having a cap. But some people do seem to be more interested in sticking it to Smallman than discussing them.

People bring their old grievances from old arguments and obscure the real points that could be made.


One thing doesn't exclude the other.


The word Bghandras used was "objective". So, yes. I think it does.

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bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 19:19 Reply with quote Back to top

If you prefer I think objectively that the behavior of some very few players had impacted too much the box and subjectively that the policy of the site should be harder with them in the future. But it’s not my site and it works well in general the way it is managed. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not throwing any lessons here but when I see the amount of energy it needed from admins to try to fix this...which they did pretty well

And for tv gap, Christer already said nothing will change but as you have, I have an opinion on that too even if I talked about smallman.
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2019 - 19:41 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
Hey hey it's Pythrr and his rhymes,
I'm bearded and I'm weirded but I'm not Rick Grimes
But just like him I be watchin the dead
Same old arguments need shootin in the head

Beat beat and the OP goes drop
Smallman's beef just got to hop
Longer acties and a lot more coaches
Dis is the stuff he gots to broaches

Quality shitpost of the highest apogee
First class stirring but a third class degree
Cos his one plus twos just don't make three
He buzin and spoutin like a crazee bee!

Big up the B crowd! In da house! Wot wot!

The argument just be going on and on
With no mens right, and with no mens wrong
All dis time we be killin and chillin
Then get back in the box and we all be winnin!

Peace out. Shizzle.


hehe, thanks pythrr Laughing

Necro'd from the other smallman box fix thread:
https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=posting&mode=quote&p=715149
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