Soulmask
Joined: May 11, 2007
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 Posted:
May 24, 2019 - 22:25 |
 
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While I agree vampires can be pretty good at high tv, they are not a top tier team just average. I disagree that ogre, norse or khemri should be higher, decay on mummies is horrible, Norse at high TV just gets trashed by bashy teams and easily outran by elf teams, and outbashed and outran by humans, which are pretty average. Ogres without goblins are very bad also, although you can make something with pro rerolling boneheads, id rather bet on a nicely built chaos pact team than ogres.
Edit: Also about orcs not being as good as their results, this is an opinion I disagree with and it`s why im so adamant in the original post to point out how good they are even if they dont look that good on paper(for a newbie, orcs and humans look very similar and balanced), but their 8 positionals are all undercosted which has a very high impact on finance and TV, and those same positionals make you able to dominate even chaos dwarf, dwarf or chaos teams if youre not bad/unlucky. |
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Old(ish) coach from the glory lrb4 days. |
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kilinrax
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
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Jun 14, 2019 - 17:15 |
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| Soulmask wrote: |
First of all, the tier list per say.
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While I don't want to be written off as 'that grammar nazi guy' ... https://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/81/per-say/
Plus, regardless of spelling, it's a pleonasm; it adds no extra meaning. "First of all, the tier list itself" is way better. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 14, 2019 - 18:29 |
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Tiers are folly. They don't actually inform anyone on HOW to make them sing. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Jun 14, 2019 - 20:38 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | Tiers are folly. They don't actually inform anyone on HOW to make them sing. |
How did you come to that conclusion per say? |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 14, 2019 - 21:03 |
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| Arktoris wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | Tiers are folly. They don't actually inform anyone on HOW to make them sing. |
How did you come to that conclusion per say? |
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/8/31/16238142/tiers-are-a-cheap-trick-to-spur-conversation?_ga=2.93804317.1218622408.1555001670-180784814.1545179137
First, I wrote that a long time ago. It gets into why I don't like tiers as a conversation piece. It feels cheap and facile.
Second, how are we approaching coaching integration into tiers of races. Are we assuming a bog standard coach can waltz in and push a 55% winrate with tier 1 races? Or 67%? Or what? What is the baseline here?
Third, tiers themselves don't speak to more successful builds of the team. For example I have a Box Orc team that is perilously low on guard and very flush with DT and +ST. It's not that great. But aha, Orcs are a Tier 1 team? Sure, only if you are actually building a team to their strengths and abilities. If you don't are they a Tier 1 team? It's like saying you have a bonafide awesome recipe for a beef stew and yet you don't use half the ingredients listed in the recipe and make substitutions for the other half. You can't control for coaches making alternative decisions that may work but are far from ideal. Same for Chaos. There is a schema of build that most people follow - is it the best build? Who knows - but what if there were alternative approaches to Chaos that are much better than simply trying to usher the opponent off of the pitch?
Fourth, tiers set up a self reinforcing self selection of teams for coaches. I have banged the drum that High Elves are actually really good at high TV because to actually get a team up to 2300+ you are going to have freaks and sneaks that buoy that TV. You will have a set of tools, some base survivability ahead of elven brothers and some flexibility to get wild even if it winds up a dead end. I play them like a Tier 1 team because I see nothing but opportunities to win during 80% of the game. But alas, if most people see Wood Elves as tier 1 and High Elves as tier 2, they will not even attempt to make High Elves sing like I've tried to.
Fifth, at the end of the day, tiers might get you into a team but they won't inform you about yourself and your strengths and weaknesses as a coach. I have been way more successful with Chaos Dwarves than most any other team in open play. They're boring to me though. It's a very 'paint by numbers' experience. I would rather have some risk of losing and get a real mental workout than do the safe and self indulgent thing of validating myself as a coach. If you only play tier 1 races, build super conventionally, and are happy to just work the racket, what are you doing here long term? I know not everyone is as gung ho about using a game to learn about life but the notion is ripe for the picking. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Jun 14, 2019 - 21:59 |
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So you're saying that to spur conversations is a folly, Mr T?
I would have expected this from anyone but you! |
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There is always Sneaky Git. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 14, 2019 - 22:01 |
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| thoralf wrote: | So you're saying that to spur conversations is a folly, Mr T?
I would have expected this from anyone but you! |
When they don't go anywhere and people just are shouting affirmations at one another, yes. It is folly.  |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jun 14, 2019 - 23:59 |
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Rbthma
Joined: Jan 14, 2009
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Jun 15, 2019 - 01:35 |
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I like your singing voice mrt1212 - I imagine it's a bit like Robbie Basho, an acquired taste.
Can't say I've found much use looking at a teams tier, in fact I don't know what tier some races are officially in. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 15, 2019 - 02:34 |
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| Rbthma wrote: | I like your singing voice mrt1212 - I imagine it's a bit like Robbie Basho, an acquired taste.
Can't say I've found much use looking at a teams tier, in fact I don't know what tier some races are officially in. |
😂 Making my sides hurt over here. But yeah, what are people functionally using tiers for even?
I mean I know there is some point towards hierarchical and categorical sorting and I have my own but whats the purpose of the question in the first place here? |
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MenonaLoco
Joined: Jan 05, 2016
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Jun 15, 2019 - 15:58 |
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I think a useful thing to know is sweetspots. When you are new-ish and try norse for example, and after getting the team a bit fatter you get trashed frequently, it's nice to know one reason behind that. Or high tv orcs: you roll all the way to 2000+ and suddenly your team doesn't seem like top tier anymore. Etc.
Not to avoid that kind of challenge, but to at least know a bit more about size of the challenge. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Jun 15, 2019 - 17:51 |
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The use of tiers for Naf tournament skill allocations is an obvious one. Definitely helps encourage a variety of team selections. |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Jun 15, 2019 - 18:31 |
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Sweetspotting is a folly. |
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There is always Sneaky Git. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 15, 2019 - 18:57 |
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| MenonaLoco wrote: | I think a useful thing to know is sweetspots. When you are new-ish and try norse for example, and after getting the team a bit fatter you get trashed frequently, it's nice to know one reason behind that. Or high tv orcs: you roll all the way to 2000+ and suddenly your team doesn't seem like top tier anymore. Etc.
Not to avoid that kind of challenge, but to at least know a bit more about size of the challenge. |
We need Spookeh to do an update TV banded analysis and not just anecdote. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Jun 15, 2019 - 19:29 |
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I think these numbers can be very skewed by popularity, as others have pointed out. For example, I would say High Elves are much more competitive than these numbers suggest, but many coaches who are serious about winning majors tend not to use them much, because there is a perception that they are 'slightly less competitive' and perhaps 'a bit more boring' than the other elf teams (not that I share those views myself).
Another example is that races that are known to be less competitive at high TV will tend to be used less by coaches making a serious major attempt. This probably applies to Undead, Amazons, Humans, Underworld, Slann, Norse, stunty teams, etc. These teams are less competitive at high TV, but they will seem even more so, unless the data is normalized.
Many moons ago, there used to be a FUMBBL page that showed a matrix of win % data for each of the racial matchups across different TV bands. It was really interesting, but I don't think it's around any more. |
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