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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2019 - 18:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks!
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 28, 2019 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

To test your theory JackassRampant played a Human team in SL with much success. They were 9-3-1 until they played my Pirates team and got Nuffle'd into retirement.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 00:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Some huge posts in this thread. Haven't had a chance to read them through properly. But here are a few things to keep in mind-

* 'normal teams' are absolutely able to play in SL, there's no issues here. They've always been able to play there. And are welcome.

* tv and player cost is vital in evaluating teams ability for lack of a better word, as is skill access rr cost, access to regen apo or not etc.. So to say things like - 'Dos are 'better' than Avelorn' is inaccurate.

* you also need to remember tiers are quite broad, so you could have 1 tier 2 team that is consistently better than another tier2 team. One could be top of the bracket another will be at the bottom. This is the same as normal teams, look at flings and ogres for example. Flings are far superior in every set of stats you look at but both sit in tier3

I have been meaning to write up a document for sometime now outlining all the tiers and where each team is meant to fall in that bracket. Obviously it won't be 100% perfect but people might find it useful.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 00:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Right, and I guess that's where I disagree. Some of the teams, to me, aren't balanced the way you describe, regardless of the win rate given the very small sample size.

And yes, I use DoS as an example because it's a contriversial one. But hypno gaze really is that good.

However, it's also a good example because I didn't say it was better than all tier 1 teams. Wood elves are also consistently superior to high elves, and I won't say that DoS is better than wood elves - the comparison simply gets too fuzzy.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 01:56 Reply with quote Back to top

As for TV and player cost, the team creation guidelines are fairly specific on what costs should be. You generally seem to follow those rules, and so, I refer back to the humans vs dark elves discussion above. I don't think the cost difference, except in extreme cases (like 200k big guys) are enough to warrant much.

For an example thats the opposite side of the humans vs dark elves (where I laid out why the higher cost of elves doesn't translate to the humans being able to actually get wins due to the tv difference), look back again at my hypothetical Orcs vs Almost Orcs (exactly the same as Orcs, except no black orc blockers). In this case, the Orcs are flat out superior to the Almost Orcs, despite the Orcs having to spend an additional 30k per black orc blocker over the Almost Orcs linemen. So here we see that, assuming costs are generally following team creation guidelines, the extra cost of players due to better stats or skills (or especially access, as on most teams that's free), generally is NOT enough to balance the extra ability for the team to win due to those stats or skills or access.


However, please also note. I'm NOT saying that the SL teams are 'bad' or 'wrong'.

I just want to do comparisons.

My concern specifically is that IF 40% of the SL teams fall in the 'difficult' (or tier 2) range compared to regular teams, then in a random league that includes SL teams, too many people will pick those teams WITHOUT understanding that they aren't as good as the majority of core teams. Absolutely coach skill can (and does) overcome this, but in many cases, the coaches who have the higher skill, will also pick the stronger teams, which leads to a bigger disparity (and is in my opinion the most likely reason we have teams in SL with 60%+ win rates) because they DO have more opponents who have picked difficult (tier 2) teams, and may not know it (or, probably more accurately, wouldn't care anyway).
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 09:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree. Though, Garion is happy with the current tiers. It is something to maybe bear in mind at the next review but it is going to be very difficult to prove much as we only have a fairly small number of games per race.

As is usual in blood bowl, the comparative strengths of races change as TV changes and the higher the TV, the less data we have.

BB2016 teams are free to join Secret League Open, but I doubt that people want to see loads of dwarves, CDs, chaos & Nurgle.

As it stands, there aren't many so it works.

Now, if we did have MM, I guess that it could get old pretty quickly. But, well, we don't.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 09:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Very reliable info that. Tzeentch at 84%. Razz


That tzeentch team in the list is the stunty leeg variant not the secret league version. They've crept into the stats because of a private league. Normally they aren't included in the stats page but koadah has for a short time added all the teams that have ever used the SL rule set. The proper tzeentch info is further down the list.

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pokrjax



Joined: Dec 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 10:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Sigmar1 wrote:
To test your theory JackassRampant played a Human team in SL with much success. They were 9-3-1 until they played my Pirates team and got Nuffle'd into retirement.


I did the same with this team. They won the first three SL slams but then started to falter a little. I don't think it adds much to the data but was a fun little way to to build up a comparative picture for myself regarding some of the SL teams. I did hear that some folks weren't too happy to unexpectedly meet a non-SL team in a SL tournament though, so that was another reason I sort of lost interest in playing with them.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 10:17 Reply with quote Back to top

pokrjax wrote:
I did hear that some folks weren't too happy to unexpectedly meet a non-SL team in a SL tournament though, so that was another reason I sort of lost interest in playing with them.


hmm that's a shame, I think it's cool having normal teams playing amongst SL teams. ah well, what can ya do. whingers gonna whinge.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 10:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
pokrjax wrote:
I did hear that some folks weren't too happy to unexpectedly meet a non-SL team in a SL tournament though, so that was another reason I sort of lost interest in playing with them.


hmm that's a shame, I think it's cool having normal teams playing amongst SL teams. ah well, what can ya do. whingers gonna whinge.


Well, there are many places on Fumbbl where you can play against the regular teams. i.e. The vast majority of it.

So, it is not surprising IMO if people fancy a change. Especially if they are using one of the weaker teams.

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pokrjax



Joined: Dec 01, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Agreed it felt right to back off and activate in GF instead. It was hard enough getting enough players for the slams in the first place as I recall!
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 14:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
pokrjax wrote:
I did hear that some folks weren't too happy to unexpectedly meet a non-SL team in a SL tournament though, so that was another reason I sort of lost interest in playing with them.


hmm that's a shame, I think it's cool having normal teams playing amongst SL teams. ah well, what can ya do. whingers gonna whinge.


That's actually why I started this thread. Is it whinging, or is it a legitimate concern?

That's why the premise is 'I think there are too many tier 2 teams, which aren't necessarily advertised as being tier 2'.

People don't want to pick a team, play against 10 teams, and think 'hey this is competitive', and then play against a core tier 1.5 team and suddenly realize their team choice is much weaker than they thought, because SL is generally on the weak side. (And even within SL, when you look at teams like Avelorn or DoS, they're just incredibly strong compared to a LOT of the SL teams. In core, playing against slann or khemri or vampire is a rarity; in SL, playing against a tier 2 team seems to be close to the norm.)
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Garion wrote:
pokrjax wrote:
I did hear that some folks weren't too happy to unexpectedly meet a non-SL team in a SL tournament though, so that was another reason I sort of lost interest in playing with them.


hmm that's a shame, I think it's cool having normal teams playing amongst SL teams. ah well, what can ya do. whingers gonna whinge.


That's actually why I started this thread. Is it whinging, or is it a legitimate concern?

That's why the premise is 'I think there are too many tier 2 teams, which aren't necessarily advertised as being tier 2'.

People don't want to pick a team, play against 10 teams, and think 'hey this is competitive', and then play against a core tier 1.5 team and suddenly realize their team choice is much weaker than they thought, because SL is generally on the weak side. (And even within SL, when you look at teams like Avelorn or DoS, they're just incredibly strong compared to a LOT of the SL teams. In core, playing against slann or khemri or vampire is a rarity; in SL, playing against a tier 2 team seems to be close to the norm.)


To me its whinging, and tbh its not something I am hearing noise about tbh, so not sure this whinging exisits. No offence meant here Smile . The weaker teams are pretty clearly marked as weaker. I get where you are coming from though, as I discussed with someone earlier today I can look at a roster and I have a pretty good idea straight away of its strength and how it will fair at different TVs. I agree not everyone can do this and in that sense the experienced Bloodbowl coach has an advantage here if they want to play a tier 1 race they can spot it a mile off.

But the info is all there to help people, I have made it very very clear in a number of places which teams are good and which are tough to use. on the SL team pages there is info about how well teams perform. Also when you are creating teams you get a rough idea of how good a team is from the Dice metric christer has for all teams, but not only that I added an additional "difficulty rating" representing how hard a team is to get to grips with. So if people are still playing tier 3 teams despite all the warnings and expecting to have a very good win ratio then thats on them really.

Yes some races are elite, but how is that different to the main teams in all honestly? How many of the official races do you genuinly feel have a shot at winning a major, or that compete at the top of level of scheduled leagues? sure there are upsets and suprises, but the vast vast majority have been won by a very small number of races. Teams like norse and humans though tier 1 just do not cut it at that level.

Then look at the 2 main tournaments for SL. 9 different races have won the 11 tournaments so far. Which looks ok to me.

SL CUP
DOS x2
Northern Nippon
Sea Elf

SL SHIELD
Khorne
Norther Nippon
Sisters of Sigmar
Clan Pestilens
Daemons of Khorne
Black Dwarves
Elemental Water

I think haven't much more teams to play with in all the tiers is a great thing personally, and as I mentioned in the thread earlier maybe we should have a tournament that only has the stunty/big guy teams in, or one that functions in the same was as the GLT. So people that play more games with the weaker races have something to aim for.

I am in the middle of typing up the tier list now though, and will post it soon, so we see how teams measure up.

Also there are some more tier 1 teams coming along soon Smile

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 16:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't know about DoS, but Avelorn doesn't look incredibly strong compared to lot of SL teams.
It's roughly as strong as High Elves.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2019 - 18:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
To me its whinging, and tbh its not something I am hearing noise about tbh, so not sure this whinging exisits.


Personally, I prefer a bit of whinging to people quietly drifting away or not signing up at all.
People are not going to say much about it because there are not many people playing these teams in the the wild.
Only one, or was it two BB2016 teams signed up for the [SL]umbbl Cup.

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