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Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:31
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Well, it seems like the turn limit option created an enormous whirlwind in the community. Makes me happy to see so many people taking an active part in the community, and especially the people who've been quiet in the past. And no, it's not sarcastic. I do enjoy seeing people voicing their opinions and communicating.

A lot of people have an opinion on the matter, and few people know exactly how the feature works and why I made the call to enable it for R and F. With this post, I will clarify this, and I will also tell you what my current position is on the turn limit. It will be a long post, but please take the time to read it before posting.

First, some background on the site and divisions.

FUMBBL has been following the LRB4 ruleset from the start. We have been introducing rules that make us converge on the full ruleset when they became available in the past. The reason for keeping the rules close to the rulebook is that the site sees a lot of coaches, most of which have played the game before using their own local variations of the rules. Following the rules as closely as possible is a way to stay neutral, and familiar to most people. I seriously don't want to go into the territory of the OLBBL where you have pages and pages of house rules, forcing people to read for hours before getting to know how things work here.

This policy has been in effect from the start, and I will not change it by a whim.

Some people are claiming that the 4 minute rule is optional. This is not the case, as you will see on page 8 in the LRB4 rulebook (item 5 in the list of events causing a turnover). You'll also find it on page 7 in LRB5 listed as item 5.

People are also complaining about how we're not implementing this or that rule (scoring while OFaB, foul taking an extra move, etc), but you have to realize that I, as the person running this site, can't make the client support these things. SkiJunkie has limited time and the complexities of the client is something that noone but SkiJunkie understands. The point here is that the client simply doesn't support a fully LRB4 compliant ruleset, and that is very different from the current issue with the time limit being on or off.

Ok, so that's the policy and rule part... Next up, let me clear up how the client actually implements this turn limit:

* Team setups are not limited to 4 minutes, even though the turn timer is running.
* If your 4 minutes run out, the turn doesn't automatically end, but it prevents you from selecting any further players. You still have to click to end your turn.
* Apothecary, 2-die blocks against, interceptions, side step, etc all make the turn timer stop to prevent your opponent from running your clock.

All this was tested before the flag was turned on for games.

Ok, so now what? The option is enabled, people are playing with it as you read this. Given the enormous uproar of comments, I will keep this option enabled for a few days and see how it works out. Allow you to get used to it, and then make a decision on whether to keep it on or revise the policy for the site and implement the first house rule.

A very vocal minority of people are crying their heads off about this option. I will not bend because of their outcries, but will take the time I need to evaluate the policy of LRB compliance. In a few days, I might feel that the time limit is indeed something that I need to modify how it's enabled.

What I ask of you guys is to give it a try and see how it works. Please don't fall into the trap of assuming it's broken before you give it a proper trial.

Thank you for reading.

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks, maybe people will realise what its about now Smile

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Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Good post - it's a good idea to have a "try it out and see" period, that can ultimately be moved back if needs be.


Joined: Oct 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Good post.

Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Nice to see a news about it. Still totally against, though (for reasons posted in the other thread).

Edit: oh it hasn't taken my post in account because of the Lock.

Okay, basically that's my opinion:

I know how I will act to encouter the turn limit problem, it will be very easy indeed.

I usually take 2mins 30 a turn. If I get a phonecall, need to go to the toilet, or things alike, I ll certainly make it wait until the end of my turn and let my opponent wait.

I have no problem with that part. Well we just won't hasten the "brb" problem (usually, I was back before the start of my own turn. I will just not take the risk.)

However, IMO, the good chatting in Ranked will go gone. Bah that doesn't count for so much coaches, but for me, at least, it's a huge blow to the fun of my games.

I won't have time to answer to my opponents nor he won't. No slight discussions. If the guy sounds fun, I won't talk to him anymore or discuss about his nice team/bio/wathever.

That's why I consider that rule as beeing bad.

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Last edited by sk8bcn on Feb 26, 2007 - 14:55; edited 1 time in total

Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:48 Reply with quote Back to top

sk8bcn wrote:
Nice to see a news about it. Still totally against, though (for reasons posted in the other thread).

/me Agrees...

Would like to se this rule as something optional, that was to be agreed upon before games...

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Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Clarification is a big help, thank you. I guess, in theory, if one really needed to go to the washroom or whatever, it could be done at the end of a turn, before clicking end turn (and after poolitely informing your opponent). No one needs miss a whole turn due to emergency, and no one need wait forever to finish a game (I often play on a strict schedule) (I mean, WHEN I play, it's usually on a schedule, not that I actually play often).

WITH clarification, seems like a good plan, let's test it out and see!

When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis

Joined: Feb 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's a difficult balance to strike here... I for one get annoyed when people don't move or even click on a player for minutes... You say something in chat and you get a response of "I'm thinking" which I don't mind, but a lot worse is, you don't get a response at all for whatever reason and the game drags on and on. The 4 minute rule will cut that kind of game out which is good. However...

I for one understand the need for people to immediately afk with a quick "BRB"... doorbells go, children cry and phones ring... and I think the 4 minute rule has a big effect on this, and will put many people off, which noone wants.

If there was a PAUSE button where the client pitch goes entirely BLACK so the player can't sit there musing over his next move then it would be a great solution and help both sets of people.

I understand why this rule has been implemented, but I think there are better ways to address this issue.

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Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for clearifying the issue.

I still find it a bad idea, but at least I know fully what it is about.

Your reason for not implementing house rules is fully understandable, but I'm not sure I see the benifit in implementing rules just for the sake of having them, especially when they were designed for a table top game and not for playing online.

Joined: Jan 04, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Nice to see a lot of the things cleared.

I still don't think it is an improvement as I still think (non-tourney) games on average will take longer with the turn limit enabled because when you need a beer/toilet/smoke/something you are forced to do that at the end of your turn just before you click end turn as at this time you can't lose anything. Thus your opponent can't do his turn then and just has to wait for you to get back.

Joined: Feb 06, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Good thing, but what is when you have to go to toilet and opponent says it is ok. Is there a "stop" button?

Joined: Jul 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Seconded, good post. From my point of view it is a brilliant thing to do, as the thing that annoys me the most is players taking 6 minutes on every turn, it sucks the fun out of the game for me.

I dont forsee many problems, since it doesnt automatically start the opponents turn if you really need a break you can just ask your oppponent 'if your turn ends without a turnover can you please not end your go, telephone...' or something like that, or just wait until the next kick off.

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Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Since I haven't had to think about this before, does the timer start when the opponent ends his turn?

Because it would kind of suck if I get a phone call or need to go to the bathroom or whatever in my opponents turn and he uses the new turn enforcement to end his turn before I get back. That is definately something that the "win by all means" crowd will exploit. Having two turns in a row is an extremly big advantage, not only for scoring, but also for inflicting injuries. Think about crowd pushes, organizing gang fouls etc. It can become a real team wrecker.

Edit: Ah, I see that Rijssiej brought this up before me...and I share his view in that things might go even slower when you can no longer afford to go afk in opponent's turns.

Joined: Oct 09, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't expect to have many problems with this thing, but I do think a lot of the issues that people have brought to our attention could be solved by actually following the rulebook. In the boardgame version the 4 min rule is enforced by your opponent. He cries "ILLEGAL PROCEDURE B**CH". You both laugh and the turn ends. In our online version your turn effectively ends, though you have to click ok before your opponent can begin his turn. Wouldn't it be better to give your opponent the option to call an illegal procedure if the 4 min rule is violated? If I have to tend to my imaginary child, I could tell my opponent and hopefully he'll be a stand-up guy and not enforce the turnover.

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 15:07
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Istarios, your interpretation of the 4 minute rule is a house rule. According to the written rules, the turn ends after 4 minutes, without your opponent calling IP.

If you actually read my post, you'd see references to the pages in both LRB4 and LRB5 for this. I'm not at home at the moment, and can't check my 3rd ed rulebook for the page number in that one, but I'm sure you can find it in there as well.
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