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Cyco



Joined: Nov 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I have read everything so far. And there are loads of good and bad comments. Confused

My conclusion is that many of us get stressed over the time limit, no matther how long it is. 4 min IS fairly long and most of us can manage to play a turn under four min easy. But then comes the other issues into calculation, the ones Christer mentioned on page 1.

I think it could be a good idea to have a countdown on the screen to show how much time you have left. Prefer a graphic one. Then I think more people would realize how long 4 min is. Wink

And its true, Christer (and SkiJunkie) can do what ever he likes, so far he's (they'r) doing a good job in my oppinion. He listen to what we all have to say, and thats good. Very Happy

But I still think it should be optional. Twisted Evil

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Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 20:37
FUMBBL Staff
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For the record, I have never stated that FUMBBL is democratic. Although dictatorship seems a bit strong and I'd rather it be called benevolent despotism. Either way, all major and large-scale decisions are ultimately made by me. I have final call and responsibility when it comes to the implementation of turn-limit, new divisions, new official tournaments (oops, did I just say that there might be some plans for this? Hmm, maybe it's just a rhethorical trick to have three examples...)

I do, however, take your opinions in consideration when I do things. I do consult the other staff members when I feel I need advice or input. But ultimately it's down to me to say yes or no. Do I think I always make the right decisions? Not at all, but I truly do what I feel is best for the community in the long run. I have to cater for our existing user-base but also have to take future coaches into consideration. How do I want this site to be perceived, what kind of experience do I want to give the users.. My vision for this place is to make it a place where as many people as possible can enjoy themselves. It's always a balance act between pushing forward and keep the place feel fresh and letting it stagnate into something familiar, but not so exciting.

I do make some changes just for the sake of it though. This place is my hobby, and sometimes I just want to add a new statistics page because I find it fun.. You know, focus on something fun rather than working on the high-priority things on my todo list.

But other times, such as this issue with turn timer, I have to consider what I want for the site in the long term. Do I want to implement the turn-timer? Yes, I do. I want to see ranked as a place for people who do play competetively. The turn-timer adds to the competetiveness in my opinion. That, together with the striving for a standardized neutral ruleset on the site, is the main reasons I want the turn-timer. It's a strategic decision, based on where I want this site to go. I do realize that a certain number of people disagree with this but it's simply a situation of me doing what I want for the community I created. I know I'll get whined at for this decision, and most likely it'll make a few people leave the site but I feel that the site will be better in the long term because of this. Otherwise I wouldn't do it at all.

Now, with the vision of making the place viable for a diverse group of coaches, I practically had to create the new Unranked division because I do realize that a number of people are not too happy with the turn timer, and would rather continue playing the recreational games they always played. I've been happy with allowing people playing non-competetively in the Ranked division in the past, and it doesn't really matter why people play there now. However, I don't want to base my decisions to implement a feature or not on the fact that recreational players are playing there as well. I mean, rather than catering for recreational players in the ranked division I'm trying to find a solution to the base problem (recreational players not having a "home" division). The [L]eague division is not the best place for this, so the new Unranked is what I feel is best in the long term.

I don't expect it to kick off and become a huge division right off the bat, but I do expect it to take place as one of the major divisions of the site. And yes, I do realize that this will reduce the popularity of Ranked as well. I'm perfectly fine with that though, since I feel that giving people choice makes them happier at the end of the day.

(Edit: Fixed a typo)


Last edited by Christer on Feb 28, 2007 - 22:06; edited 1 time in total
Krulemuck



Joined: Jan 30, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 20:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer, a couple of things come to my mind:

1. a global coach ranking and awards reset.
Everybody start fresh.
2. transfer all Ranked Teams to Unranked, and make the coaches actively click some buttons to transfer their teams back to Ranked.
throw in a disclaimer: Ranked is competitive, are you sure you want to go there?

OK the reasoning for this is to basically assume everybody is a recreational player, and the competitive teams are supposed to leave unranked on their own and meet again in ranked.
That way unranked would have a huge kickstart in popularity, and ranked will refill pretty fast i guess.

Another thing is divisional transfer rules.
I think it would be a good thing if teams could move between the two divisions somehow. Not every 30 seconds, but i think there should be a backdoor of some kind - even if it is just to ease the fear of "beeing stuck there".

Overall i think it is a clean, sharp cut and does exactly what you aimed for: provides suitable homes for diffrent types of playing styles. a virtual tab on the shoulder from me there Wink
Mully



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 21:19 Reply with quote Back to top

1) There is no need for a coach/rewards reset. Why do you think everyoen needs to start off fresh? Nothing was done to the ranked division, except for adding a timer. bad idea.

2) Why chnage teams from ranked to unranked only to have coaches change them back to ranked again? Unecessary work for no benefit. Coaches are already told (if they read) that ranked is competitive when they create their teams. bad idea #2.

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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 21:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Mully wrote:
1) There is no need for a coach/rewards reset. Why do you think everyoen needs to start off fresh? Nothing was done to the ranked division, except for adding a timer. bad idea.


Because so many CR points were gained from beating the "casual" players.

Mully wrote:
2) Why chnage teams from ranked to unranked only to have coaches change them back to ranked again? Unecessary work for no benefit. Coaches are already told (if they read) that ranked is competitive when they create their teams. bad idea #2.


Because Inertia is likely to kill the new Unranked. Better to put the burden on the "hardcore" coaches to move their teams back to Rank.
Mully



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 21:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:

However, I don't want to base my decisions to implement a feature or not on the fact that recreational players are playing there as well. I mean, rather than catering for recreational players in the ranked division I'm trying to find a solution to the base problem (recreational players not having a "home" division). The [L]adder division is not the best place for this, so the new Unranked is what I feel is best in the long term.

I don't expect it to kick off and become a huge division right off the bat, but I do expect it to take place as one of the major divisions of the site. And yes, I do realize that this will reduce the popularity of Ranked as well. I'm perfectly fine with that though, since I feel that giving people choice makes them happier at the end of the day.


1st - I assume you meant [L] League.
2nd - I still don't follow how the old Div U didnt meet the recreational user's needs. The only prob with Div U was finding enough opponent's on game finder to play, and you have basically made that problem worse by splintering the old U into L and U.

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Mully



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 21:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Well craftnburn, as usual, I will just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Mully wrote:
Well craftnburn, as usual, I will just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.


Fair enough
Plorg



Joined: May 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Krulemuck wrote:
1. a global coach ranking and awards reset.
Everybody start fresh.

Considering that you have only played 9 games here,
I will say that your opinion on this particular matter isn't worth much.
After you have played a few hundred games like a lot of coaches here,
then I might consider what you have to say on the topic of erasing everyone's achievements.
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 22:09 Reply with quote Back to top

As this is turning into a discussion of the new divisions, and away from the turn limit in ranked ... please people do have a look at the discussions that go on in the new unranked forum too.

Will probably avoid *some* repetition.

-Mnemon
Sziro



Joined: May 07, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 22:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

However, I don't want to base my decisions to implement a feature or not on the fact that recreational players are playing there as well. I mean, rather than catering for recreational players in the ranked division I'm trying to find a solution to the base problem (recreational players not having a "home" division). The [L]eague division is not the best place for this, so the new Unranked is what I feel is best in the long term.


Create a place for those coaches that do not whant to play very competitively (with turn limit) by splitting the old unranked division? The problem with U in the first place was the lack of active coaches. Will so much old R coaches move to U now? Let s hope.

Kk
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 22:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
Mully wrote:
1) There is no need for a coach/rewards reset. Why do you think everyoen needs to start off fresh? Nothing was done to the ranked division, except for adding a timer. bad idea.


Because so many CR points were gained from beating the "casual" players.

Mully wrote:
2) Why chnage teams from ranked to unranked only to have coaches change them back to ranked again? Unecessary work for no benefit. Coaches are already told (if they read) that ranked is competitive when they create their teams. bad idea #2.


Because Inertia is likely to kill the new Unranked. Better to put the burden on the "hardcore" coaches to move their teams back to Rank.


I must say I agree with Craftburn here.
Basically, I agree with him regarding the transfer to Div U.
If the reason why turn limit was implemented and cheered at was to give hardcore players a truly competitive environment, the perfect way to make it TRULY competitive is:
1- To reset CR
2- To start R fresh new, letting in only those who REALLY want to be in

After that, I think we could start considering both U "populated" (without the need to wait weeks or months for it to happen), and the new R "truly competitive" right from the start.

It just makes sense to me.

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Last edited by JanMattys on Feb 28, 2007 - 23:06; edited 1 time in total
Krulemuck



Joined: Jan 30, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 23:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm starting to like JanMattys Very Happy

Well, ranking and awards are something that relate to the present.
Meaning, who is the highest coach ranked right now, or who has the most awards at this time.

With Christers drive to draw some kind of line between competitive and recreational play, ideally any rating and awards are gained from equally competitive opponents - or at least more competitive opponents than there were in the past.

So first of all the U division would be highly populated right from the start, which would be great.
And secondy, the competition in ranked would be fierce since old glory is gone and coaches have points and awards to gain.

The result as i imagine it is a even more competitive ranked and a way higher populated unranked.
Wouldn't that be good?
Plorg



Joined: May 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 23:16 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Craftnburn wrote:
Mully wrote:
1) There is no need for a coach/rewards reset. Why do you think everyoen needs to start off fresh? Nothing was done to the ranked division, except for adding a timer. bad idea.


Because so many CR points were gained from beating the "casual" players.

Mully wrote:
2) Why chnage teams from ranked to unranked only to have coaches change them back to ranked again? Unecessary work for no benefit. Coaches are already told (if they read) that ranked is competitive when they create their teams. bad idea #2.


Because Inertia is likely to kill the new Unranked. Better to put the burden on the "hardcore" coaches to move their teams back to Rank.


I must say I agree with Craftburn here.
Basically, I agree with him regarding the transfer to Div U.
If the reason why turn limit was implemented and cheered at was to give hardcore players a truly competitive environment, the perfect way to make it TRULY competitive is:
1- To reset CR
2- To start R fresh new, letting in only those who REALLY want to be in

After that, I think we could start considering both U "populated" (without the need to wait weeks of months for it to happen), and the new R "truly competitive" right from the start.

I just makes sense to me.

My opinions on some topics:

- Resetting CR: I don't really care. The arguments for it make sense.

- Resetting Awards: HELL NO.
For the past several months, we have been presented with the concept of
Awards as potential accomplishments to strive for as coaches.
Erasing that now would waste months(years) of many coaches'
specific efforts in specific categories to get those awards.
With the possible exception of the "Winning Streak" awards,
I fail to see the connection between "making Ranked the competitive division"
(with the flawed implication that Ranked has not been competitive so far)
and achieving those awards already in the "non-competitive" Ranked division.

- Putting all teams in [U] or [L] and making coaches move them back to [R]
If that were the case, I would personally want to move all of my teams to R
and then keep them in R forever. Many of my currently [L] teams are only there now
because there used to be a 5-team limit in Ranked and I wanted to try other races.
It was not because I wanted to play them in [L] or [U].
It is because the site did not let me make more [R] teams.

- Erasing all teams from all divisions and starting over.
Not yet explicitly said, but some statements could be interpreted this way.
I would leave FUMBBL if this happened.
Plorg



Joined: May 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 23:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Krulemuck wrote:
I'm starting to like JanMattys Very Happy

Well, ranking and awards are something that relate to the present.
Meaning, who is the highest coach ranked right now, or who has the most awards at this time.

With Christers drive to draw some kind of line between competitive and recreational play, ideally any rating and awards are gained from equally competitive opponents - or at least more competitive opponents than there were in the past.

So first of all the U division would be highly populated right from the start, which would be great.
And secondy, the competition in ranked would be fierce since old glory is gone and coaches have points and awards to gain.

The result as i imagine it is a even more competitive ranked and a way higher populated unranked.
Wouldn't that be good?

Since you haven't been here long enough to achieve many Awards,
you personally have nothing to lose by proposing this.
Thus I will say again that you do not have the grounds to form a proper opinion on this matter.
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