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pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 16:41 Reply with quote Back to top

This has been sitting in the rules of the league since it was founded:

White Isle League rules wrote:
Do you think we should let Ogres into the league? That Wizards and/or Stars should be banned? That there should be a limit on the number of DPs per team?

If so, the procedure you need to follow goes like this: first, make sure that the rule change you want is within the power of the league to effect - some things are fixed by the client or the site, and are impossible or impractical for us to change; second, get a total of five league coaches (including yourself) together who agree with you; third, all of you PM [pac].

And yet no one so far has actually done it. Maybe that's because everyone is actually completely happy with how things are …? Anyway, I thought it was about time that we had a rules review whether anyone had asked for one or not, so please raise anything you had been thinking about here.

A few things to get the ball rolling:

Racial Limits change

Originally, there couldn't be more than one team from a roster in a division - ie, two Human teams would always be kept apart, except in the top division. Recently, this has been changed, since it seemed artificial, and I couldn't see what was wrong in Orcs, Chaos, etc, having to play each other.

On the other hand, this has led to the 'Chaos League' (two seasons running!) in the Regionals, and a rat-infested Conference this season. Again, this seems fine to me, but my team isn't one having to play the same opposition week in, week out. What are the opinions of other coaches on this?

Future expansion of the league

Some may accuse us of counting our chickens, but over the weekened we were discussing possible ways in which the league structure could expand beyond the planned 1-2-4 (ie, 1 Premier Division, 2 Conferences, 4 Regionals).

First, there are things I definitely don't want to do:

- add a fourth tier (would take far too long for a new team to get to the top)
- increase the number of teams per division (makes seasons longer with more 'dead' games for mid-table teams with nothing to play for)
- have more than one division in the top tier (means you need to use a play-off system to get a league champion, which is unsatisfying)

That leaves us with some other options, each of which has some problems:

- add a third Conference (this could create a kind of 'bottleneck' for getting into the top division though. It would be very difficult to get promoted without winning a Conference outright). Having added a third Conference, there is then capacity for up to at least 6 Regionals
- create a second, parallel league structure, which would follow many of the same rules, but could have some differences too (this helps to satisfy demand for league play in general, but not demand to get into the White Isle League in particular)
- leave the league structure at 1-2-4, but work on creating a 'fringe' set-up, with assorted mini-tournaments outside the league structure proper (it is arguable how much demand there is for this kind of thing when we are in the prime timezone for Ranked events, etc. Would require a dedicated member (or members) of staff to run)

What's your perspective on these ideas? Do you have better ones? It would be good to hear from coaches throughout the league - the idea that there might be a 'bottleneck' getting into the Premier Division would probably be much more of a concern to someone in the Conferences/Regionals than it is for a current Premier Division coach!

FA Cup this summer?

This season should end some time around the end of June, so we'll be getting towards summer holiday territory. If a lot of coaches are going to be away for a fair amount of time it may be wise to switch from the usual league programme to a KO cup as we did over Christmas/New Year.

Please vote in your posts on whether you'd like a cup or continuing league season after the current campaign!

If we do have a cup, there's a question, with 48 teams, of how it would run. We could have an initial 64 team draw, with 16 fillers (byes). Or we could have a mini-competition of 16 for the weaker teams by TR, with the other 32 going into the main draw. Or maybe, again, you'll have a better idea.

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BlackNWhiteDog



Joined: Feb 05, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 17:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I like the idea of having a summer cup. Not sure how to work 48 teams though. Maybe give the top tr teams a bye which would means the lower tr teams get an extra game b4 coming up against a high tr team.

I think the idea of having 3 conferences is the best idea of the lot. How about having 4 go down from the premiership instead of two?

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 17:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm well behind a cup after this season. 6 months gap seems fine. How's about we go Rugby sevens with the format? Randomly drawn groups of 3 teams. Round robin format. Team that finishes first goes into the Cup, second the Plate, and third the, erm, Vase? So then everyone gets 2 games in a group, and a guaranteed first rounder in the KO competition. Solves the 48 team problem.

As for the other stuff, I've not brought up any rules changes, because I'm happy. I don't feel strongly about Ogres, but I think if someone did, and suggested it, I might rethink my 'nay' position. Racial limits work fine for me as they are. Gives a bit of character to divisions having 3 Chaos or whatever. But I guess the coaches that have to live with 3 Chaos games back-to-back are the ones that should comment on it!

Expansion.... 64 thousand dollar question. Not sure on this one. I like the idea of a fringe, especially with the vibrant (at times) chat channel we have. But it would be tough to predict how much use it would get. I'd get behind any good idea! Laughing

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GrinningD



Joined: Aug 24, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 17:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Vote Summer FA CUP

Ahem. Gotta say I think a cup this summer would be fun. I Like Purp's idea about 3 team round robins, I don't know if there's ever been anything like that on fumbbl and it could work out very nicely and earn the league a good reputation.

I also concur that if and when we expand the league it would be best to do so with an additional conference as that will open up another pair of regionals, creating a total of 24 new team slots, although the bottle neck effect is certainly a conundrum. Perhaps the premiere league could be increased in size and then the bottom 6 teams could be at risk? Bottom 3 automatically relegate to each of the conferences and the remaining 3 must have playoffs?

As a member of the chaos league I have to say that I don't mind it myself, although it does mean I have not had the opportunity to play many non bashy teams, or any orcs at all. I agree with pac as to the artificial nature of seperating the races out and I think this should continue as it is.

As for Ogres? I wouldn't vote against them, but I don't care enough to actually start a vote...
Chewie



Joined: Dec 13, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm well up for a cup competition, though unlike Purp, my preference would be for a football style draw, with the premier teams getting a bye into the 2nd round.

As for the expansion options, there is a reason that pyramids work best in league structures, so i would leave as is for the time being, but i don't know the length of the reserve list! This is also partly due to the fact that we've only just expanded and i personally favour organic growth rather than forced growth.

Having said that, the fringe option, if worked correctly, could be a perfect tonic for those seeking an elfbowl fix, for example. Are you thinking along the lines of a "soft" and a "bashy" mini-tournament? This could be a perfect way to either trim or boost the ratings for the season caps.

The racial limits seem to work fine as they are, though i would have no problem with accepting Ogre teams into the league, if only for the comedy value they bring! Very Happy
pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 18:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Chewie wrote:
Having said that, the fringe option, if worked correctly, could be a perfect tonic for those seeking an elfbowl fix, for example. Are you thinking along the lines of a "soft" and a "bashy" mini-tournament? This could be a perfect way to either trim or boost the ratings for the season caps.

Fringe events wouldn't be for league teams, btw.


I've tested, and three team mini-tournaments do work (I thought there might be a four team minimum), so that is an option.

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Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

League structure
A 3rd conference would make it nigh impossible for lower ranked coaches like me to ever get to the top division unless there are going to be 6 teams relegated from the premier division or at least playoffs that could cause this.
A can’t see much point to a parallel league.
The fringe idea is ok as it will give a pool of teams to draw from who are not then brand new and can therefore be more competitive in the regionals. But my experience in 145 and pubbowl would suggest that the early enthusiasm soon declines and it becomes hard for those who want to play to get a game. But of the 3 options this is the best.

Racial Limits.
Keep the limits for the league as a whole, I have no problem with the ‘Chaos League’ situation.

FA cup.
Yes please.
As to the format I would expect that some teams would not take part, so it may be less than 48 anyway.
If you want a weaker competition how about taking the bottom 16 by league position?
I think the 3 team round robin idea is the best suggestion so far.

General rules.
I don’t like Ogre teams, Wizards or star players BAN them all!
I am not keen on DP’s and would limit them to one per team. But then I don’t foul much and can be considered biased against them.

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Furious_George



Joined: Aug 13, 2005

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 19:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Ill hang fire on judgements til i have had a chance to digest it all, but i love this league. Anything that supports making the league bigger and better is all good by me Smile

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Xenon



Joined: Mar 15, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 19:18 Reply with quote Back to top

League expansion - The more the merrier and however it can be done

Racial limits - *shrug*

FA Cup - Yes, Yes, Yes! Again any format you like

Ogres - *shrug*

DPs - limit to 8 per team Wink
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 19:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Xenon wrote:
League expansion - The more the merrier and however it can be done

Racial limits - *shrug*

FA Cup - Yes, Yes, Yes! Again any format you like

Ogres - *shrug*

DPs - limit to 8 per team Wink


That's ridiculous. When I get to 10 plus Zombies, what else do you want me to give them? Hmmm? Booooo I say! Laughing

You'd better believe my Eraser Zombie will get DP early! Razz

Edit : BTW, I'm kidding. Skill selection / wizard / star restrictions are a bit lame, in my opinion. I play in a no stars league, and I think it detracts something from play. I'd never play in a no DP league.

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Wotfudboy



Joined: Feb 17, 2004

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll simply say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it... sometimes quality is better than quantity.

From what I've seen everyone is happy with the rules and the current set up... but this is only my second season, so perhaps those who have been here longer should have more of a say!

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pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Wotfudboy wrote:
I'll simply say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it... sometimes quality is better than quantity.

That's true, but continual expansion has been the name of the game since day one! It's stability that's the unknown country. Wink

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spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I vote a big Yes! for the FA cup.

I'd back up what cyrus says about the cup though, a period of when it will be played should be decided (say 1st - 28th June for example) and then all the interested coaches should have to sign up for it.

That way if people are away or don't want to risk drawing their beat up elf conrefence team vs a monster orc premier team then they don't have to play. It's unlikely that we'll get an nice even number so there would have to be some sort of mini league or byes. Personally I'd be happy for the higher Tr teams to get it automatically just like in the real FA cup, but radomly deciding would suit me too, and probably be fairer.

As a coach of squishy humans that's been in the chaos league this season and the last I don't have a problem with that, the racial limits are good, it'd be dull to have 1/2 the league all be the same team and to have just bashy teams but they are fine as they are.

If someone wants to start an ogre team next season I'd vote yes, ogre with the min FF of 7 ogre teams are pretty weak to start, especailly as they'll be facing TR150+ teams. I'd much rather face them than Orcs to be honest.

One thing about expanding the league is that it's better to have a smaller active system than have lots of people sign up then not play or contstatly require extensions. I think we should only add another league (be in regional or conference) if we have sufficient interest from new players.
There have already been a few drop outs and I don't know how many reserves we have left.

One thing I'd suggest for season 6 is getting all the existing WIL coaches to sign up again (give them plenty of time of course) rather than automatically assuming they will continue. Either posting in a thread or by sending PM's


Last edited by spubbbba on May 07, 2007 - 23:50; edited 1 time in total
Britnoth



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

FA cup should definitely remain a straight knockout. Either give 16 teams a bye, or have the bottom 16 only play in the plate.
Furious_George



Joined: Aug 13, 2005

Post   Posted: May 07, 2007 - 23:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Im happy enough to have additional conferences etc.
I think that if that breeds 'super teams' then so be it, and if it results in the death of classic teams, then thats fine too.

I do think TR caps are important, bashy teams should be made to pay if they fail to achieve, and not just sit in conferences retiring woodie after woodie Smile
I like the balance the league has at the moment, whereby the prem is a tough place to stay, and dropping down doesnt nessecarily mean dominating the noobs in the division below til you get promoted again with a better team. The fact that we havent seen a 'basher' team win it big yet emphasises for me the fact that things are right. Sure, those elves are a bit mangled now, but in 5 games they could be challenging for the title etc...

All is well, continual growth along without changing the spirit of the league is what i'd support Smile

EDIT: yeah, definately the FA should be a knockout Smile

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