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Poll
Would you like this new rule?
Yes, it's worth a try
7%
 7%  [ 32 ]
No, but i would like some other way to prevent elfbowling
6%
 6%  [ 28 ]
I don't like elfbowling, but i don't think we can do anything about it
18%
 18%  [ 79 ]
Elbowling is fine
66%
 66%  [ 280 ]
Total Votes : 419


Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Chiungalla wrote:
Are you a politician?
Finding a problem, don't know how to solve it for good, but take an action that is not able to solve it to do something on the problem, looks much like the way politicians spending there days.


Well, i do believe it would at the very least minimize the problem. Not fix it completely, but make it a lot less, well, problematic! I think that's better than nothing, don't you?

Chiungalla wrote:
Elfs can come to high TR and TS even if they play hard opponents. It's something about stochastics.

They are, by design, able to reach high TR.
Even if they play bashy teams. It may only be unlikely to happen. But with some thousand coaches around, you will always have some highest TR Elfs for the next major-title around.
It is a simple matter of stochastics.


I believe the word you're looking for is probabilistic, as stochastic is simply the opposite of deterministic. Indeed, you say that something is bound to happen, which makes it very deterministic and not stochastic at all! ;-p

Anyway, i believe it would take a lot more than thousands of coaches to do it. I believe you'd probably need about a million before you could get a TR 250-300 elf team with money to spare and no perms, without elfbowling your way there.

Sure it's a possibility, but so slim as to be negligeable. And chances are that one team will get decimated soon after and never get back to that kind of shape afterwards.

Of course, i may be wrong. Maybe it's easier than i think it is to get an elf team up to that level despite the casualties suffered. Maybe all it takes it enough time.

Chiungalla wrote:
And if one will survive with his 280+ Darkies till the next major, and apply for it, he has a greater chance to win it, then the 280+ Orcs, Chaos or Dwarfs.


I agree. Like i said, the game was balanced so that a dark elf team would rather end up there around 50 TS below the other teams, with lots of perms, and not so much money in bank. Then it's fair game and i believe all teams would have an equal chance, like it was meant to be.

Chiungalla wrote:
A ban on elfbowl would solve no problem, but it will reduce the overall fun and the number of games played on fumbbl.


Please read the edit to the original post. It contains a suggestion that should eliminate this negative aspect. I think it's worth considering!
Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Cloggy wrote:
Zombie69 wrote:
Well, personally i don't think elves could build up to that point without cherrypicking. In my experience, an elf team that will play against all races will never be able to collect that much money, and they will even have a hard time making enough money to replace dead and injured players. They will end up heading into the tournament either full of perms, or with too few players to present a challenge.


Now you're confusing cherrypicking and elfballing......


Sorry, i mean elfbowling. Got mixed up with another post. Anyway, i edited it now. Thanks for pointing it out.


Cloggy wrote:
But saying that this is purely an elfballing problem is just the wrong angle. Is it powergaming? Yes it is, but that has been discussed to death in other threads. You fail to convince me that elfballing is a problem.


You're right, elfbowling certainly isn't the whole problem, but i think it's the most visible and most extreme aspect of it. I mean, when you look at a team's past games and something like 29 of their last 30 games are against elves, you can see there's a problem there!


Last edited by Zombie69 on Sep 20, 2007 - 09:15; edited 1 time in total
LordSnotball



Joined: Nov 05, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Please learn to read between the lines:

'it's a mod who suggested i make this thread' = the mod was having a nice day till some coach came along with some insane restricting idea just to conform others to his playing style... the best way to deal with this is:

"Hrm, sounds promising, post it on the forum and see what others say" knowing that the majority of us will just shoot it down.

then the mod just says "well, looks like its a bad idea after all, thanks for not wasting any more of my time".

Ranked is ranked, people play however they want... elfbowling is fun, but its a game of attrition, if ur opponent beats u up before u can outscore him, you lose...

Cherry picking is unhealthy, but the only thing that could be done is to conceal the CR of a coach who has his team on gamefinder... but then this means that a lot of 160+ coaches will be doomed to playing 140 coaches by chance when they are looking for a more challenging game...

_________________
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Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually, the mod in question took a lot of time to talk to me, about this and other things. And he didn't come off at all like someone trying to get rid of me. But again, this is not the point. The point is the idea itself. So, like it or not?

Personally, i like the new idea more, to apply the rule to majors only and not to all ranked.
runreallyfast



Joined: Sep 08, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's easier to get an elf team to 250 TS playing bashy teams than Zombie69 seems to think.

I started a dark elf team, played each race once (excluding wood elves and norse, still looking for those), while taking each skill once (not best either) and my team was at 250 TS. Three of the players had aged, and I had two niggles caused by opponents. My fan factor barely moved.

Under the 50% elf rule I could now play, hm, 17 consecutive games against elf teams. Want to bet my TR wouldn't be over 300?
Pirog



Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I wouldn't say that the main problem with cherry picking is the CR of the opponents...
Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:25 Reply with quote Back to top

runreallyfast wrote:
I think it's easier to get an elf team to 250 TS playing bashy teams than Zombie69 seems to think.


No, my point was that you couldn't get to 250-300 TS, with money in bank, high FF and no perms.
runreallyfast



Joined: Sep 08, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:28 Reply with quote Back to top

But I _could_ just play 20 games against bashy teams then 20 games against elf teams. Problem solved! My existing dark elf team is nearly there, just the 20 games against elf teams to go.
Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Ya, i thought about that. I wanted to add to Pirog's suggestion that a certain number of games prior to the major should be looked at (maybe last 20), as well as the total games played. But i didn't want to add it to the discussion now to keep it simple! ;-p
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

i still fail to grasp where you think you have the right to tell other coaches how they should play, and why you feel it necessary to remove the most important factor from this game....a coach's right to have fun...

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

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Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Says the guy who elfbowls his way into the majors.

This is about balance. Under Pirog's suggestion, you can have fun all you want, just don't enter that team in the tournament. Why? Because tournaments are competitive by nature, and fair competition requires balance.

So then everyone is happy. People who like elfbowling can do it all they want, and people who don't like it don't have to take those teams seriously.
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Zombie69 wrote:
Says the guy who elfbowls his way into the majors.


funny...last team i took into the majors was a chaos team....

again....even if it was an elf team....it's *MY* team...i'll do with them whatever i please, and it's none of your business otherwise....

Zombie69 wrote:
This is about balance. Under Pirog's suggestion, you can have fun all you want, just don't enter that team in the tournament. Why? Because tournaments are competitive by nature, and fair competition requires balance.


and if you wanna talk competition.....my gameplan for tourney prepping is to take as few games that are going to damage my team, and to take relatively fair TS matches that i have the best advantage in....

what's the point in having a team that i want to take into a majors, and systematically destroy them by playing nothing but bash before the start of the tourney?....

your own logic would undermine the entire tourney by having nothing but mangled crap teams playing in it....

again....get off your high horse just because warrior trounced you, and come back down to reality with the rest of us....

Zombie69 wrote:
So then everyone is happy. People who like elfbowling can do it all they want, and people who don't like it don't have to take those teams seriously.


so essentially, by your rules, the only ones that are allowed to take part in majors are the hardcore freakshows that run gauntlets day in and day out, and those of us who enjoy playing whatever matches we feel like playing, have no business in your tourneys?

seems to me that maybe you should get out of ranked, go to league and make your own little tourney where everyone has to play by your rules....

cuz your "ideal world" sure as crap isn't going to happen in ranked...

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

ImageImage
Brad



Joined: May 16, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:47 Reply with quote Back to top

<<< Inserts Tounge Firmly in Cheek

Following Zombie's suggestion, why dont we also ban bashbowl? Those Bashy teams who load up on the killer skills and forget about Tackle, Shadowing, Diving Tackle because they only play other bashy teams. Those killer teams force the elves only to play amongst themselves because an elf team runs the risk of getting torn apart on all those claws and MBs. Those bashy teams try and cheat by taking out the elves before the tourneys - not caring how many losses they take. I propose we ban any strength team playing non elves, just to balance up the playing field outside of tourneys...

Synn, Shadow and OB I think have said ample...

Sorry Zombie, dont think your idea is ever gonna fly.

_________________
He who dies with the most toys.... Is still dead
JackDaniels



Joined: May 03, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:47 Reply with quote Back to top

you can build up your elf as much as you want. only thing that can stop a good developed and good coached bashing team to win vs elves is the wizard imho. this is the main reason why there were so many elf winning the majors recently
JimmyBlitz



Joined: Jul 05, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:55 Reply with quote Back to top

It comes down to this (and it's been said)
1. This is a game that people play for fun, any restrictions on this game made by the site, should (and as far as I can tell is) strictly be in the interest of deterring cheats (spp farming , taking dives, etc)
2. Sure, elves can play against elves. But there is absolutely no justification that says that because of elf bowling, there are less casualties, thusly creating higher tr, longer lived teams blah blah blah... Lower AV teams playing lower AV teams increases the statistical chance of there being casualties. If every block on the field results in a 7+ armor roll, more armor will be broken, so on and so forth... So it is more likely that there is a casualty. Now if you strategically limit the number of blocks against your team, then more power to you. This game is about strategy, and luck. You cant expect people to just line all their guys on the LOS and bash around, if they are built... not to bash. Like elves.
3. As slightly mentioned before, the game is all about luck. Ag4 elves will fail dodges, av 9 Trolls will die and fail regen... all your arguments are about things that cannot be controlled. No matter what race you are, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't, you may get no cas, you may get 5. It's about the dice. You try and strategize to give yourself an advantage (like trying to get a 2d block instead of 1d) but no matter what you do you can still get nuffled. Now, apply that two elf bowling. When you realize that there is always a chance of failure and death. Same applies against bashers trying to bash.
4. Teams have a niche to make them interesting, otherwise we would all be playing humans. You complain that elfbowlers limit there CAS by playing other elves and being agile, yet they are still just as frail whether you block the once, or a hundred times. Again, dice. Should we then complain when bashers get +AG, or take big hand/sure hands? Thus giving them the ability to score touchdowns, and with their high av they can survive longer, and all the TDs will give them more spp and skills and high tr and on and on? Thus giving them the advantage over bashers because they have a better chance of getting the ball and scoring, yet have the same good armour, and advantage over elves because they can sometimes have similar chances to pick up/score, yet have even better armor. We should ban av9 from rolling +AG or taking ball handling skills, and keep elves from taking mighty blow? Is this rational thinking? No, its flawed, and are your arguments.


Last edited by JimmyBlitz on Sep 20, 2007 - 10:03; edited 1 time in total
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