PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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 Posted:
May 25, 2008 - 04:12 |
 
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Hey guys, I'd really appreciate it if anyone could watch the games I've had with my Woodelf team and give me some pointers.
I gather that I'm supposed to make quick breaks into my opponents endzone but I'm not quite sure what formations I should be using and that sort of thing. I don't really have a good basis for comparison but it feels like I'm doing too much blocking and not enough dodging. I guess this is partly due to the fact that I seem to fail an unhealthy number of agility checks (needing to reroll to pick up the ball on a +2 on turn 1 really sucks).
I've been told to look at replays from "kfoged" and he does seem like a good high elf player, would it be a simple case of copy/pasting those strategies to a Woodelf team or not?
EDIT: Typical, I forgot to link to the team;
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=461493 |
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Bert
Joined: Apr 01, 2006
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| Posted:
May 25, 2008 - 06:16 |
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Greetings
The things that came to my mind after a quick look at your games was that you should try to harass your opponents ballcarrier more. Especially low ag-teams will have it difficult to get the ball back once they lost it, which will give you room for a counterattack.
Also always try to keep your ballcarrier protected, even if he's a wardancer.
Furthermore some general advise i try to follow with woodies;
-avoid a blockfest. Keep your distance and strike on the opportune moment.
-try to get a player into a position where he can run of with the ball after you retrieved it from your opponent. Woodies are excellent counterattackers.
-try to score as much as possible with linemen. They need the spps the most.
These are the links to what pac wrote about woodelfs which are really good guidelines:
http://fumbbl.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=15&page=8
http://fumbbl.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=18&page=7
Hope it was of some help.
Greetz
Bert |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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| Posted:
May 25, 2008 - 08:47 |
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| PorkusMaximus wrote: | | I guess this is partly due to the fact that I seem to fail an unhealthy number of agility checks (needing to reroll to pick up the ball on a +2 on turn 1 really sucks). |
Don't!
If you fail the pick up in round 1 and only have 2 rerolls, do not reroll it (unless there is an actual danger of something like a gutter runner swooping in and stealing the ball, but most of the time there just isn't!)
On average, every 6th agility check is going to fail, so you need to A) buy more rerolls (you should have between 4 and 6 rerolls) and B) only reroll crucial rolls. That failed pick up in round 1, which should have been the last action in your round anyway, can't hurt one of your players and won't worsen your situation if it fails, so just leave it. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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May 25, 2008 - 09:56 |
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I think the two most common mistakes that a newcomer to Woodies makes are scoring in two or three turns every time (really, there is no need to give the opposition all of that time to respond if you don't want to), and assuming that you can only survive if you play Elves or Rats 9/10 games. It takes a bit of practice, but you're actually better off against bashers. Find a coach that you like the style of, watch some replays and apply their strategies to your own game. Before starting my current Woodie team, I researched DreadClaw and pac's replays, as well as watching some of PeteW's FUMBBL Cup run. Seems to have stood me in good stead.
Good luck! |
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zoglug
Joined: Feb 13, 2007
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May 25, 2008 - 12:03 |
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Definately watch a few replays of decent woodie coaches to see how they do things. A great deal can be learned.
I want to play HE and am currently watching Kfogeds Nandorins as im interested in seeing how a decent coach uses them. Hopefully itll make me a better player although that is a tall order. |
Last edited by zoglug on %b %25, %2008 - %17:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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May 25, 2008 - 13:41 |
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Bear in mind that it takes a while to develop a Wood Elf team to become effective.
As you've noted, 2+ rolls need to be re-rolled a lot and you need to make a lot of them too if you're going to play in the way Wood Elves are best at.
The problem is, you're probably starting with just 2 Team Re-rolls and a team of mostly Linemen - who have no re-roll skills. The early games aren't likely to be pretty …
But you have to keep playing for the team to get better. Some coaches seem to keep restarting WE teams in the hope of finally getting some perfect start where they don't lose any players. It's not going to happen. The thing is though, even a team of just 7 elves, who have a few skills, and 4 or 5 TRRs, is much better than a starting team. They're also a solid core onto which you can add new players.
So, the key is to keep playing, don't worry about your losses, get more skills and get more re-rolls. Once you've done that, games will be different.
(Watch Mr_Launcher and Rijssiej's games too.) |
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FischerKing
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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May 25, 2008 - 14:42 |
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Dont speck Kfoged too much, he is a highelf coach and highelves play slightly different. You have two things going for you with woodelves: Speed (thats were they differ a little from Highelves) and Agility! If you learn to abuse these two adventages you will get far.
I have written lots of posts on woodelf strategy on talkbloodbowl, and I dont want to keep repeating myself so follow this link to one of them instead and go to page 3:
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24862&start=30
The basics of woodelves is to not let your players get hit very often, but you probably allready know that.
Edit:
Ok, specked the firs turns of your last game agaisnt the chaos dwarves. A good woodelf coach winns his games against hard teams during the first 3 or 4 rounds of the opponents offensive. These turns are very important to you, so you godda be more agressive!
You get a good kick without the kick skill (get it on the next lino who rolls a double) Round 1 he fails to pickup the ball on his bull in the backfield. Your round one you make the first mistake not to put preassure on the ball were it would have been easy to do so. Run your player Tahlitas between the ball and the rest of the team asap, its a free action! Then after you have blocked in the other side, do the same with Shaor. If you can make a little screen with them, it means that he has to spend the blitz on one of those, AND that he cannot fail the 4+ pickup another time, nor fail the blocks on the line to make a proper cage.
At the end of your turn 1 you made a screen all across the map, but there isnt any preassure on the ball at all and he is allowed to fail another pickup, make a possitioning mistake or something of the kind, for free.
Turn two he cages very poorly, its a little present for you really, as there is a wide gab through the center of his defense. Your wardancer can get 1 or even 2 dice your choice on his bull Centaur, and that bull neither has block nor dodge. These are the chances that has to winn you the games as a woodelf coach, and if you dont take them, you dont want to winn badly enough!
First off all things in your turn, you move Kaele diagonally next to the Bull with the ball. Its excactly the 7 squares that is his movement allowance and its a "free" action, because you dont need to roll dice to do it.
Then you stand up Naiaer to cancel assists, and thats also a free action. He will get hit by mighty blow or piling on the next round, but if the play works you wont have to leave players in tacklezones for the rest of the game, so he takes one for the winn!
Then Shaor moves towards the chaos dwarf Merlin, to give assist for a two dice block and clear the path for your wardancer. Put him so he is not in the way of the wardancer.
Zyean now makes a 2dice block on Merlin, and you only need a push, so you push or knock him over diagonally towards the LoS.
Then you can take two paths, 1dice or 2dice on the ballcarrier:
The 1 dice option:
Take this one to awoid rolling too many 2+ rolls, and to be able to pick up the ball with the wardancer, or with Tahlitas who will be able to advance the furthest downfield. The shot on the ballcarrier will only be 50 % though, so you probably want 2 dice and 75 % chance.
Dodge 2+ with dodge rr with the wardancer, and blitz the bull with 1 dice. That should be 7 points of your 8 points movement.
If it works, and the ball ends up out not in a enemy tacklezone, dodge out and pickup the ball with the wardancer, maybe make a go for it and use the rest of your lineelves to dodge out and protect him.
Or, use Tahlitas to pickup the ball, cage him if you can, or throw the ball down towards his endzone after you used the rest of your linemen. You have the speed, so you will be able to hunt it down and pick it up
The 2 dice option:
Make a 2+ dodge with Tahlitas and put him in the tacklezone of the bull Centaur with the ball. Thats excactly the 7 points that is his movement allowance. Blitz the same way as before with the wardancer, and push the bull in between, the two assists. Bigger chance of succes on the block, but your wardancer will not be able to pick it up safely, as your assists and the bull blocks his progression. See where the ball ends up and then use Kanryl to pick it up, try to cage it or maybe throw it downfield after you used the rest of your linemen to screen off his players or put tacklezones on the ball.
Next round, score or secure the ball to score later.
Its a very simple play really! Dont play as you seem to be doing to stop the other team. You are av 7 so your odds is bad. Eventually you will burn your rr's dodging, then make a turnover and leave him lots of blocks, and get outnumbered too badly to make a proper screen. And all you achieved is to help him stall untill turn 8. Play to steal the ball and score!
Take notice of how this play really uses your teams two adventages, speed and agility! I didnt watch the rest of your game, the first two turns has plenty of advice for you as it is. |
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Gracehoper
Joined: Jul 13, 2007
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| Posted:
May 25, 2008 - 16:28 |
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| FischerKing wrote: |
You get a good kick without the kick skill (get it on the next lino who rolls a double) |
I suppose Fischer ment "who doesn't roll a double". Kick is a normal skill (but as he said: Very imporatant, esp. to Woodies and Skaven). |
_________________
Nuffle loves fluffers and hates silly theme names. |
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FischerKing
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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May 25, 2008 - 18:05 |
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I suppose thats what Fischer ment yes  |
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PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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May 26, 2008 - 02:17 |
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For experimentation purposes I decided to get a treeman, just so I could have some added clout along side my dodging...
Man did I ever regret that decision. In 2 games he has managed to knock himself over literally THREE TIMES rolling double skull or double pow/skull on the first turn of the half. For added hilarity, in his first game he spent around 3-4 turns failing to stand up and when he finally managed it, he promptly took root. By that point he was never going to make any difference anyway but I still spent a good 10 minutes laughing. Then I cried a little bit. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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May 26, 2008 - 05:50 |
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He'll come good. And he'll be the last one laughing when the rest of the team have long since retired. Remember however that trees can't use rerolls. So if you have a reroll to spare try to make tree blocks towards the end of the turn. Also remember that he is st6, so making 3d blocks is possible a lot of the time. 3d blocks do make a big difference. 2d blocks against a player with the block skill have a high chance of going wrong. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
May 26, 2008 - 11:48 |
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| PorkusMaximus wrote: | For experimentation purposes I decided to get a treeman, just so I could have some added clout along side my dodging...
Man did I ever regret that decision. In 2 games he has managed to knock himself over literally THREE TIMES rolling double skull or double pow/skull on the first turn of the half. For added hilarity, in his first game he spent around 3-4 turns failing to stand up and when he finally managed it, he promptly took root. By that point he was never going to make any difference anyway but I still spent a good 10 minutes laughing. Then I cried a little bit. |
Don't expect a Treeman to contribute anything to your game. I have one which is MA 3 and ST 7 - it's really cool! But still useless.
The only thing you can count on the Treeman doing is standing on the LoS and soaking up some hits. This it does very well and is a worthwhile investment for the purpose.
(If you want your Big Guy on his feet, don't make two dice blocks with it. Blocking is not obligatory.) |
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PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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| Posted:
May 26, 2008 - 13:41 |
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| Quote: | | 2d blocks against a player with the block skill have a high chance of going wrong. |
That's true and I realised I am wasting his potential by only making 2 dice blocks, however in all fairness I wasn't blocking against anyone with block/dodge, I was blocking against linesman without any skills. :p |
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FischerKing
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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May 26, 2008 - 14:45 |
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If you dont have block, your tree will make a turnover 1 out of 9 times on 2 dice, and 1 out of 27 times on 3 dice. With block the risk is 1 out of 36, so if you want to block with him and you cant handle him going down very often, give him 3 dice. Its not far of the odd's with block, but know that its still a bit risky so you shouldnt depend on it. As Pac says, trees is mainly good for soaking up damage on the line, and on a team with linemen that expensive its well worth it.
On a sidenote, trees can be usefull for tying up low ag players like dwarfs and blackorcs, and thus can be usefull in your overrall scheme to isolate a cage. Trees can also sometimes be cagebusters, though its rare it happens, but if some basher doesnt mark your tree with something, it might approach their cage (he only moves 2 squares but basher cages arent too fast either) and eventually threaten it or force it to move somewhere else. A str 6 stand firm player hammering into the corner of a cage is pretty cool.
On a double your tree takes block and becomes a reliable blocker and harder to knock down, or he takes pro to block somewhat better, and awoid some take roots, or stand up more often etc. A 10 is the best thing you can get, as that gets him movement, and allows him to bypass half his negatraits (4+ to stand up). A player like that one with break tackle and guard, also becomes a real threat to cages when your other schemes failed.
The funniest player I ever had was in fact this tree:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&op=view&player_id=1252686
Pretty lucky increases made lots of good plays against cages with that one. Often they had to spend the blitz on him and not on an elf. |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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I had some fun experiences with my wood elves during the last E.L.F. season. I took on all races and a number of strong coaches, so you could browse some of my games. I took a look at your most recent game to get a feeling for what's been happening to you.
Some fundamentals - make the safe moves first. Maneuver your free players to advantageous positions before you start throwing blocks. Don't use your big guy to block first or to blitz, unless necessary.
Here are the wood elf specific ideas:
1. Play the ball. You're not going to win the game by getting into a vulgar brawl with your opponent. Get the ball, protect it, score touchdowns. Blocks are only necessary if they help you with the ball.
2. Dodge away. I see you picked dodge on your linemen, that's great. Dodging away makes your players safer, allows you to set up assists for blocks, and gives you chances to attack the ball carrier.
3. Balance the SPP - I see you've been doing this as well. With wood elves it is simply critical to skill up your linemen. It's a disaster to score too much with your wardancers.
4. On defense, if you don't have a shot at the ball carrier, snipe around the edges with your blitz/blocks, but don't leave elves next to opponents. Ideally, you'll leave a one square buffer zone between your elves and his cage. Attempt to surround his players, take away his space. Don't let him easily advance.
5. Leave a player in scoring range, or at least in a place where he can run away to safety. When the ball comes loose, and it will, you need to punish your opponent.
6. Wardancers are great for suicide missions. Leap into the cage, take the two-dice against block, push him back, and use the strip ball skill. Once the ball hits the ground, your elves are in their element. |
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