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SamSagace



Joined: Oct 24, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 19:37 Reply with quote Back to top

I really disagree on that ! Illogical costs may still made a team balanced with another race. But what about balance between another Khemri team ? Right now, there is only one way to go when building a Khemri team... 4 Mummies right from the start then adjust details.

One should decide how many they want to buy and other speciality units should worth every gc put in it. So a team with 4 mummies should have the same chance to win vs a team with only two and more Blitz-Ra and Thro-Ra. But as you can see now, it isn't the case at all.

And if reducing the cost or boosting theses units make the Khemri too strong, then attack the real problem of Khemri... Mummies. Make them cost more or just reduce their numbers, but why all the units in a team should cost more because only one of them is too strong ?

It's like if in an Orc team, Black Orc would cost 60k and blitzers 100k. Overall, it won't change the balance of the team vs other races. But that will force every Orc player to play with 4 Black Orc. No place for diversity...
AsperonThorn



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 20:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Why did the original Undead team get two big guys with no negative traits?
Why don't High and Dark Elves even get Big guys?
Why don't str 4 players ever start with Block?

These are all questions that have one answer, balance. Teams are not only balanced with each other, but they must also be balanced with themselves. High and Dark Elves don't have Big guys because allowing those scoring machines with AV8 a scary hitting game, put them over the top. Allowing the Khemri team to have good ball handlers and four str 5 blockers puts them over the top. Pricing a Khemri Thro-Ra in comparison with a Human lineman, or lower than a Human thrower, Also puts them over the top. Why? Because Allowing a team that has four Str 5 guys to have cheap position players, and cheap skeletons is asking for a power blocking team, that has a full roster at TR100. Is that Balanced? Does that make sense? No. Therefore, the few players that can handle the ball have been increased in price. You are free to not take them and use rerolls and fill out your roster with skels.

Or, play orcs.

Asperon Thorn
Colin



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 20:14 Reply with quote Back to top

A very well put point, SamSagace. It would be interesting to see how a Khemri team roster limited to 0-2 Mummies would have to be balanced to make it competitive - it would probably be along similar lines as the original Undead, with a minimum of 6 positional players (Thro/Blitz-Ras) available, and at least some ag3 in there. The original Undead were a bit too good because of their access to Ghouls, which often resulted in dominance in early games because of the Mummies and a few blodge ghouls, when the other team hadn't even got a Tackle player yet.

I've been very concerned with the proliferation of ultra-bashy teams in recent Experimental rosters, and Khemri are leading the queue. It is skewing the balance of the game away from the 'average' Human roster towards something more like Chaos Dwarfs, Undead or even the horribly imbalanced Pact teams. Perhaps it'll be fairer once PO is fixed. I haven't played Khemri, or watched many games with them, but are they actually fun to play with and against? That should be the biggest factor.

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AsperonThorn



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 20:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Well Fluffwise, I think the Khemri are suppose to be the"Tomb-Kings" in which the mummies are the heart and soul of the team. If you want a more balanced, flexible undead roster you are suppose to look towards the necromantic roster. Since the Pact Teams are not going to become official, and Piling on is going to be fixed, I think the Human type medium will be restored. PO being the main problem.

Asperon Thorn
thmbscrws



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 20:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I really don't think that the experimental teams have more bashy teams than nonbashy, that is ignoring the pact teams. The bashy teams are khemri, Ogre, and Rotters. The obviouse scoring teams are pro elves and vampires. Finally you have necromantic which for some reason a lot of people categorize as a bashy team but when you stop and look at it how bashy are they really. You don't consider humans a bashy team because they have four players with block and an ogre do you? Necromantic is really more of a in the middle team like humans than a bashy team. So when you stop and look at it, ignoring the pact teams as they will be changed soon anyway, the experimental teams are pretty even with 3 bashy 2 scoring and 1 in the middle.

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Jared



Joined: Aug 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

with the costs you suggest it becomes simple for khemri to have 4mummies 2 blitzra 2 throwra etc from the start, which means no hard choices in the team makeup (like the chaos debate more warriors less rr to start or vica versa)
otherwise with your costs all starting and developing khemri teams become typically predictable.

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swilhelm73



Joined: Oct 06, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 21:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I tried a Khemri team. Boring as could be, at least to me. You cannot play the ball or to score - because of the horrible ag and low speed. You can only win by pure bashing the other team off the pitch. I play teams that involve a lot of bashing, but at least say orcs can throw the ball or score with 11 opponents still on the pitch.

I guess I'm in the minority though, because Khemri dx teams seem as common as Chaos Pact ones...
SamSagace



Joined: Oct 24, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2003 - 22:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Jared: I didn't suggest only to reduce the cost of the "Ra" units. But also to boost the cost of mummies... as they are too strong costwise vs other khemri "special" units. In my example i told to raise mummies by 20k, but it could (should?) be more than that.

Really i don't think that having 4 units on the field with AG 3 will make them a TD team. Have they really been tested like that ? There is absolutely no way for a Khemri team to stop a TD from any 6+ moving team with passing skills. Then any non-mummy unit is weaker than any other teams, so you'll have a hard time protecting the ball (if you manage to be lucky and grab it). If you're lucky on armor and inj roll (and if your opponent just don't get away from your 3MA mummies), you'll probably be able to score late in the second half... to lose 2-1. :p

Personnaly, i think original undead are A LOT better than the Khemri. But if bashing things is your thing and you don't care about score, then yes Khemri is your team.
Pardus



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2003 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

throw-ra's need NoS, strong arm or HMP as a starting skill not sure which (since they have no catchers it's not going to really do heaps for them, but it helps a little)
blitz-ra's need av8
BunnyPuncher



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2003 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Khemri as fine as they are.

It is possible to score with Khemri, and they are terrors when they have the ball. Sure its a plodding game, but so are dorfs, cds, orcs etc.

Defence is tuffer, thats why i keep two mummys back a bit so they can get in on the action if I am playing versus a faster team. But a Khemri team throwing a shut-out is far from uncommon. Just keep a throw-ra and a blitz-ra deep and dont commit them unless its to get the ball. My Khemri avg 0.61 TD against over 18 games and I'm a mediocre coach. Darkwolf's Khemri only allow 0.35 TD against over 17 games, i dunno his strat but thats an incredible number. Neither team has piling on.

Khemri are great as they are and should not be changed one iota. They are fun (if challenging) to play and require quite a bit more thought then most people give them credit for.

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Petter



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2003 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Not much fun playing against 4xST5 with MB if you're into building up your team though. Wink
Colin



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 08, 2003 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Darkwolf's Khemri only allow 0.35 TD against over 17 games, i dunno his strat but thats an incredible number. Neither team has piling on.


it's always been my feeling that PO actually weakens your defence, as not having all your players standing would leave big holes for the other team to slip through. Over the course of the game, the reduced number of opposition players because of PO would come into play to redress this, but I always like to make it hell for the other team to score, whether it's early or late in the game.

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Raimius



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2003 - 23:26 Reply with quote Back to top

BunnyPuncher wrote:

The throw-ra should more accurately be called the pickup-ra.



I 100% agree BunnyPuncher. Only members of the team who can pickit up reliably.

At least, they get it more often than my Dark Elves do.... Evil or Very Mad

~R~
Darkwolf



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2003 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I have not played an elven/skaven team with my Khermi. I doubt an elven coach would want to play me. the result wouldbe a loss with me inflicting several casualties.

Khermi are very difficult to play and cannot come from behind to win. Skill selection is very important. As noted, PO weakends a defence as it leaves gaps and holes up. You need your mummy's driving players back and blocking each turn.

I played my skaven versus two Khermi in the Fumbbl-X cup, both wins, but I payed for it. I managed to score with only 2 players on the field on defence. 2AG means leaving yourself wide open if you fail the pick up. Fast and/or agile teams kill Khermi. The team is average slow and can be outflanked.

My strategy is 3 mummy's to control the middle and 1 back to cover 1 side of the field. Then I let my ra's with tackle hunt down those that get into my backfield. But my TD's against would be higher if I played elves and skaven. But due to the teams bashiness I get alot of vamp, dwarf matches.

I find the cost to be perfect. Skeletons are cheap and easily replaced. I have lost a mummy that took me a few games to replace. But with 3 mummy's, you still dominate the line of scrimmage. My skill choice for the pick-up Ra's: Hail Mary. More reliable than throwing deep.

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Azurus



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2003 - 00:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
A Blitz-Ra should cost 60k and Thro-Ra 50k. Therefore, to balance things out, a mummy should cost 130k. It won't change anything for the total cost of the team, but each unit will be more balanced that way. And you won't have the feelings to waste money on special units that aren't that much special.


You've just unknowingly explained why the Thro-ra and Blitz-ra are overpriced: to keep the cost of the mummies down. Having to replace a 130k mummy is a little too big a hit for a roster-player. Fine for your normal big guys, who are *extra* to the regular roster team, but they can only lose one at a time.

That said, Khemri teams do build up obscene amounts of spare cash...

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