SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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 Posted:
Nov 11, 2008 - 01:37 |
 
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I think that halflings are ridiculously under-rated by the Team Strength formula. This has always been an issue but now we have the [B]lackbox division (which is great  ) it is even more important to get halflings TS right.
Problems with the current calculation:
- It comes out with a figure which is far too low.
- It under-values chef ingredients, only adding 5 for each one when they are closer to being worth 9 or 10.
- It under-values dirty player, which is very strong against rookie teams.
- It somewhat undervalues a deep bench because rookie halflings dont account for very much TS.
- It horribly under values the first skill (as in, dosent account for it) but horribly over-values later skills (3 skill halflings are 8TS which is daft).
- It somewhat under-values some +Stats until they become stacked with skills (which are somwhat irrelevant).
- No idea if it values trees correctly... gut instinct says yes.
- Deeproot looks like he is correctly costed.
This is a real problem in [B]lackbox because the scheduler makes matchups based primarily on Team Strength (as far as we can tell). That means that a rookie halfling team will pretty much always be drawn against a beaten up team for its first game (or maybe vampires) - perfect for a team so well known for fouling. Once the team gets skilled up it will start to prey on bigger fish, moving on to regular teams which are just starting out... you'd have thought that this would be risky but by the time its skilled enough to get to 100TSish it will have multiple DPs and maybe a +AG and will be more than capable of beating any rookie team.
I've not looked into how to change the formula exactly yet but here are some values I think I'd be aiming for...
Ingredients - 8TS (but include the free masterchef as one ingredient)
Rookie Halfling - 2TS
Experienced Halfling - 3TS
Veteran Halfling - 4TS
..and so forth (roughly 1TS per skill, maybe a little less as the skills get more useless)
Halflings with +AG - 8TS (and a bit more once skilled)
Halflings with a double... I'd roughly double what they normally cost (though that should be different depending on the skills)
Thats my rough idea of what to aim for, but I think its something where multiple peoples input would be a good thing. Fire away  |
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Dominik
Joined: Oct 29, 2004
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Nov 11, 2008 - 01:50 |
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Chief cooks arent worth 9 or 10, the average reroll costs are 60k, so 6k should be the assumed worth. Then, only 5/6 times the reroll is reduced, which makes it worth... 5k. |
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Plorg
Joined: May 08, 2005
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Nov 11, 2008 - 01:53 |
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Being vain enough to believe that I personally had a large effect on Halflings suddenly ruling the low TR brackets after the recent statistics update, it makes me smile to see this thread. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Nov 11, 2008 - 01:55 |
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Plorg, I'm sure you had a significant indirect effect but the people who really modified that table were the ones who have cherrypicked with flings time and again, not just a mere 50-100 odd times like you or I However, your message about this thread is golden 
| Dominik wrote: | | Chief cooks arent worth 9 or 10, the average reroll costs are 60k, so 6k should be the assumed worth. Then, only 5/6 times the reroll is reduced, which makes it worth... 5k. |
Ingredients steal a RR and give the halflings a RR. On average a RR is around about 60k, and a halfling RR is 60k so it should come out at about 10TS. I chose 8TS to be conservative as it wont always be useful and the kickoff table can sometimes rob you of some of the benefit. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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MSpanke
Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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Nov 11, 2008 - 02:11 |
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A stunty team has never beaten a non-stunty team of mine. I see no problem here. |
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paulhicks
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Nov 11, 2008 - 02:15 |
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| Plorg wrote: | | Being vain enough to believe that I personally had a large effect on Halflings suddenly ruling the low TR brackets after the recent statistics update, it makes me smile to see this thread. |
you dont have a halfling team.... you have a team of psychotic murderous chaos warriors who disguise themselves as flings.
the fact that after 92 games ,the majority of which have been vrs bashy teams like orges, orcs and chaos (rather than the rats and rookie elves certain more famous fling teams prey on), you have a winning record AND a positive cas difference is truely outstanding.
I've said it before and i'll say it again....
You, sir, scare me!  |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Nov 11, 2008 - 03:09 |
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\o/ Leave the Flings alone! |
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Diabl0658
Joined: Oct 05, 2004
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Nov 11, 2008 - 03:48 |
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Rookie flings are fine at 1.5 TS, rookie goblins are worth 2 T |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Nov 11, 2008 - 04:07 |
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| Diabl0658 wrote: | | Rookie flings are fine at 1.5 TS, rookie goblins are worth 2 T |
... and the rest of the team? Stunty TS has been way out for a long time, it just happens that its most obvious in stunty division and blackboxing halflings. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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Nov 13, 2008 - 13:45 |
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That makes me wonder:
If there is a BBox ranking, first 4 matches rule should apply as it does on [R]anked.
Once Flings get to TS 100, they are to consistently beat Dwarves? Because that the Zons problem again. |
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Mithrilpoint
Joined: Mar 16, 2004
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Nov 13, 2008 - 14:09 |
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Flings in the hands of a competent coach are devastating at low TR/TS. Goblins less, as it is the cheap reroll-stealing ability that really hurts. Add to that the possibility of a very deep bench and it's downright scary unless you are born with block/tackle. While flings are undervalued at low scores (i'd say at up to 130-ish ts) when they reach the level where their opponents have say 13 players, a few with block, some mb etc they cannot compete on equal terms. If there was to be implemented changes to the TS formula based on lov ts teams then the higher ts teams would suffer even more than they allready do.
So the clever fling coach keeps ts low because that is where they have a good shot at dominating. Flings are a very good starter team. And they're fun, leave them alone.
M |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Nov 13, 2008 - 14:21 |
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I don't think that "TS is miscalculated for low TR flings, but this advantage makes up for the troubles they'll find at high TRs" is the right approach to the problem Sillysod arised. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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Nov 13, 2008 - 14:44 |
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I wouldn't go into making a completely different way TS works for one race. I agree with Mithrilpoint the main problem with fling TS is the cheap reroll stealing. So just increase the TS for the reroll stealing to 9 TS per ingredient (including the free ingredient they always have) to fix that.
The other problem with flings at low TR is the same problem amazons have. Dodge is very strong when there is little block and/or tackle, so they have an advantage against all races except dwarfs at low TR. This isn't solvable by the TS formula. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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Nov 13, 2008 - 14:52 |
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As I had been stated, the TS on the reroll grabbing is the issue.
I think the extra chef should be 6 (60k additional reroll) + 6 (average between 40k and 70k rerolls costs) * 5/6 (chance of success) = 10 TS.
Of course, there is still a chance the othr team will have less rerolls, but there is also a chance that the other teams would be taken to zero rerolls, which would normally have an additional TS adjustment in the system.
So, boost additional chefs to somewhere from 8 to 10 TS and the issue is resolved. |
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Mithrilpoint
Joined: Mar 16, 2004
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Nov 13, 2008 - 14:57 |
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Increasing the value of the chefs reroll-stealing would move the problem from flings being too low rated at low ts to being too high rated at higher TS . But if the bigger problem of these two is in the low bracket then it is a decent fix.
M |
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