Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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So, alot of people are confused regarding what the purpose of the division is. I'm sure I've been a bit vague with the intentions, and by being so caused some confusion on the subject. With this post, I want to clarify some things.
The main purpose of the division is for as many as possible to find games and have fun.
To me, the best matches are the even ones. Neither coach should feel cherrypicked, either through uneven team strengths or by uneven coaching abilities. This is where the compromises start. It's simply not possible to give everyone an even match in a system where the participants have such a spread in team strengths and coaching ability.
Ideally, the matches scheduled should be between equal teams (in terms of TS) and equal coaches (in terms of BR and BBR). Since this is not possible, the scheduler must implement some kind of compromise.
Finding a reasonable compromise is the purpose of the alpha phase of the division. It's a bit surprising to see people make statements that they won't ever play in the division based on how the scheduler works in the alpha phase. Regardless, the current scheduler works with these parameters:
- Team Strength
- Blackbox Ranking
- Blackbox Bash Ranking
- "Mirror matches", where both teams are of the same race.
- Last match for each team.
The weights for each of these factors are what's being evaluated in the alpha, and tweaked as I identify issues. The latest change I did made TS a much stronger factor, and I am planning to add a factor for team preferences to the system at some point soon.
That being said, the blackbox is never going to be a division for everyone. The intent is still for the scheduler to strive for even matches, which involves pairing strong coaches against other strong coaches to some extent. The coaches who come here to play easy matches with their killer chaos teams should probably look elsewhere. |
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maznaz
Joined: Jan 26, 2004
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 Posted:
Nov 18, 2008 - 12:29 |
 
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I think a lot of people have ulterior reasons for not wanting to play the new division, and as such are looking for something ideological to object to publically. Most of us understand the direction the division is going is positive, and are willing to be as helpful as possible in the inception phase. The last change made a massive difference to the TS disparity people were seeing and is another big step forward. |
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Zuul
Joined: Nov 15, 2003
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:30 |
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All good Christer and, to be honest, some of the recent changes you have been making to the weightings has been providing better match ups. Looking forward to when this gets fully implemented in to FUMBBLs being. |
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Forrest_Gump
Joined: Sep 25, 2003
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:30 |
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Hmm, i'm still enjoying the division even though i don't particularly like BR having an effect - and getting some silly matches as a result. And it will surely result in people making BR dropping teams. Any chance of seeing BR btw?  |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:32 |
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Yay! That's exactly what I want to do in B, play and have fun. Never mind my teams getting mangled somewhere in between 
I do like the comment about the chaos teams... I have to admit, I'll always try to kill a chaos team when they are at tr100, it's a lot easier to kill them when they are babies... When tehy grow up, they become evil |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:35 |
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Big Love.
I like. |
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arw
Joined: Jan 07, 2007
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:39 |
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Hey Forrest-
If your "BR dropping teams" provide a reason to play underpowered teams it's fine with me.
I'ld like people to play a balanced combi of tough and "soft" teams anyway.
Makes [B] more versatile doesn't it? |
Last edited by arw on %b %18, %2008 - %12:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:40 |
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Works for me.
You always lose some people, no matter what you do, as it is impossible to please everyone - that said, I prefer that you have a vision for the division and take actions accordingly. Too many cooks spoil the broth. |
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arw
Joined: Jan 07, 2007
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:46 |
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Actually I saw some games that seemed unbalanced and-
o wonder-
the underdogs won more often.
Maybe I just saw some "strange" games with lucky underdogs-
but I got the impression that those uneven teams were scheduled for reasons of BR in the first place.
Turned out it wasn't so unfair after all I guess. |
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Emphasy
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 18, 2008 - 12:52 |
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still need to fix flings, gobbos and ogres, as that is all the mentioned races face the first couple of games usually.
Elseway its been getting better and better for sure |
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Pirog
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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Nov 18, 2008 - 12:52 |
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To Christer,
While I respect that you made the division primarily to be a fun league for everyone, I personally feel that the pairing of coaches by equal strength part is unfortunate.
To me Blackbox division seemed like the place where you really challenge your own abilities. Going into a blind match and being forced to play the opponent despite sometimes getting a very hard challenge. To me, and I'm sure many others, beating a highly rated (no matter if it's in CR or by reputation) coach is one of the challenges that makes it fun to keep playing here on Fumbbl. But if the Blackbox division will always give me handicaps in these matches it kind of takes the edge out of the pride of winning. It's also quite an obstacle to develop as a better player if I will only face better coaches at an advantage in team strength.
To me the purpose of the game should be that the coach that played best wins. We all know that the many dice rolls sometimes prevents this, but the idea to me of a fair match is simply that two equally balanced teams face each other and that, if Nuffle allows, the one with the better skills wins. I shouldn't be able to beat the top coaches of this community unless I'm at the very top of my game during the match or get lucky.
I hope I don't come across as too negative though. I didn't think I would enjoy the Blackbox division, but it has been extremly entertaining to me so far and for some reason, with the exception of some really rough dice rapes, the atmosphere seems a lot nicer in Blackbox compared to Ranked. People are chatty, friendly and often take the time to write a litte match report comment etc.
So keep up the good work, but I hope you would consider at least making the impact of skill rating for coaches a quite marginal factor in the match-ups.
Oh, and please take the time to merge U and L. We are a bunch of people waiting for that one!  |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 18, 2008 - 12:56 |
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And I also enjoy BB more in the TR140-160 range... After 200+ it just feels like a competition on who rolls less double 1s. So I dont think that the bashers limiting the growth of my TR will matter to me. Since recovering at low TR is a lot easier. The only problem with the scheduler I've had so far, is it hasnt given my gobbos any victims yet, it always seems to find a match for either my skaven or norse |
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Pirog
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:02 |
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| arw wrote: | Actually I saw some games that seemed unbalanced and-
o wonder-
the underdogs won more often.
Maybe I just saw some "strange" games with lucky underdogs-
but I got the impression that those uneven teams were scheduled for reasons of BR in the first place.
Turned out it wasn't so unfair after all I guess. |
I have had the same experience, but unless Christer has meddled with the actual game mechanics - which I strongly doubt - at least for me it must be due to freak luck. The two real cherry games I have gotten so far, with my block developed khemri team vs rookie undead and my 11 man strong ogre team vs 8 dark elves lacking blodge ended in two of the worst dice rapes I have had in my entire Fumbbl career.
I actually got outbashed by the 8 dark elves. They scored something like 6 casualties on me. In the khemri vs undead match I failed to inflict a single cas despite bashing plenty all match long. (The one cas the team scored was when an opponent ghoul niggled himself on a failed block)
But I can't see how that could possibly be anything but chance. It came down to extremly bad dice rolls for me and lucky cas rolls for the opponent etc. Both parts in both matches were very clear that it was the dices as well, so it's not me trying to hide my mediocracy
And of course there might be reason to say that I deserve it for playing khemri and ogres, but that is beside the point |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:11 |
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There is an important issue here: arw, I object to that avatar!
Seriously, yours may be animated, but it's eating away with no food there at all! Mine (supplied by Meech) may never reach its pills, but the very fact that they are, tantalisingly, there adds dramatic tension.
In addition, mine has the thought-provoking alternative interpretations of a wedge of cheese, or a pie. In yours, a spade is a spade and a pac-man a pac-man. Oh, and mine's not horribly pixelated. 
I demand that Macavity make a ruling on this matter! |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:15 |
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Dear Christer, first of all, BlackBox rocks, thanks for it.
I would like to ask for clarification about how the scheduler works Since i am too much mathnoob to understand the detailed mathematics, i would just like to clarify the principles of the scheduler, as i think that many (including myself) might have misunderstood its mechanics.
The mentioned parameters of the scheduler stated above are:
- Team Strength
- Blackbox Ranking
- Blackbox Bash Ranking
- "Mirror matches", where both teams are of the same race.
- Last match for each team
As i understand it now, the differences between 2 possible opponents in the first 3 factors are measured, as well as a "fixed" difference factor for possible mirror matches or repeated matches vs same opponent. Differences are weighed (e.g. TS counts a lot more than the rest) and best possible matchups made (with a lot of complicated stuff not necessary for the question i got).
Now this would mean that a bigger difference in BR, e.g. i had a blackbox ranking of 160 and my opponent of 140, would not result in matching me vs. this opponent but giving him a matchup with some team strength advantadge. If it would match us, TS advantdge is equally likely to be on either side. It just means that both coaches are more likely to be matched with a different coach with a more similar BR.
Is that right? That would also mean bashers are more likely to play other bashers, but do not suffer a TS disadvantadge when playing non-bashers.
Or are TS, BR, and BBR somehow added, as many seem to think (and as i did for a while), and then a difference is created? Which would mean that e.g. non-bashers or bad coches would be likely to get TS advantadge...?
Thanks for clarification in advance (either by christer or by anybody who understands the math).
That said, the first possibility would be perfectly fine for me, while i would not like the second too much. |
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