Azure
Joined: Jan 30, 2007
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 Posted:
Nov 26, 2008 - 07:27 |
 
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As far as I can understand, the TS formula for the calculating big guys is busted.
For example, the following are the TS costs for skills for ogres:
No skills: 117k
+ Break Tackle: 138 (+21)
+ Guard: 131 (+14)
+ Piling On: 129 (+12)
+ Multiblock: 127 (+10)
+ Block: 127 (+10)
+ Tackle: 127 (+10) *unconfirmed*
+ MA: 140 (+23)
+ AG: 135 {+18}
+ ST: 140 (+23)
A few examples of 2 skill ogres (note: the second skill is not just the value above, but also a premium for being a second skill which is an extra +2 as far as I can tell)
Guard/Break Tackle: 154k (+37)
Block/Tackle: 140k (+23)
+AG/+AG: 160k (+44)
+ST/Block: 152k (+35)
I could go on...however, essentially, what I found in my investigation is the following fact:
Rolling doubles for ogres gives you much needed skills that improve your chance of winning but *also* yield a lower TS relative to non-doubles rolls and thus mean you are facing weaker competition as well.
Morale: unless you got lots of doubles, ogres just are not worth it.
Note: This does not just pertain to Ogre teams. All big guys - the TS for trolls with guard is 109k, but for trolls with block is 105k.
Please correct me if I had made a mistake, but the more I dig into the TS formula, the more I see issues like this that I think should be fixed for the next version of Blackbox. |
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Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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Nov 26, 2008 - 08:08 |
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Strange imbalances in TS need to be fixed for all divisions, not just for [B]. In fact, up to now the avarage matchup in [B] has been less equal on TS than those in [R].
Therefore, [R] needs this fixed even more than [B].
Well spotted! |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 26, 2008 - 09:01 |
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The simple fix would be to increase the cost of block and potentially pro on all players with a negatrait. Probably give an extra +4 to the player, raising the TS by 2. |
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PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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Nov 26, 2008 - 09:06 |
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This is not an exclusive problem for big guys but for all high AV low MA teams. If you look here You will see that high AV is at a relative premium. The Ogre team isn't that great but they develop well TS wise, as do most basher teams. This is why Orcs for example can pack so much skills (Guard/Block/DP) into low TS and basically destroy any fresh'ish' high MA low AV team, coz they get all those skills and development for free compared to the costly agile teams. |
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Ilovpompom
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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Nov 26, 2008 - 14:47 |
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Block is just as useful on ogres than on anyone else. So if you want to raise it, raise it on all players.
No reason to raise the cost for ogres if you don't do it for everyone. Yes block is a the best skill, no this isn't different for big guys. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Nov 26, 2008 - 14:53 |
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Or we should just switch to LRB 5.0 and use the new team rating formula. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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Nov 26, 2008 - 14:54 |
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| Ilovpompom wrote: | Block is just as useful on ogres than on anyone else. So if you want to raise it, raise it on all players.
No reason to raise the cost for ogres if you don't do it for everyone. Yes block is a the best skill, no this isn't different for big guys. |
It might not be a case so much that block is too low, but the other skills (Break Tackle) are too high. |
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kn00b
Joined: Jan 23, 2008
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Nov 26, 2008 - 15:24 |
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| Grod wrote: | | Or we should just switch to LRB 5.0 and use the new team rating formula. |
Grod - you are my hero. |
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SeraphimRed
Joined: Feb 01, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 26, 2008 - 15:26 |
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Yar, this is all explained in the TS formula, examples of higher value occur for:
# Guard adds 2.5+Cumulative to the player value. Cumulative is increased as normal.
# Break Tackle adds the default value plus 1 further point. If the player has a strength of more than 3, an additional 2 points are added
There are some oddities in there and some obvious things that simply aren't taken into consideration, this is why some folk are requesting a review of TS - but it's no small task to balance I imagine. |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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Nov 26, 2008 - 15:45 |
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The TS thing with Ogres and BBox is that low TS and high TR makes you play with handicaps.
...and yes, unless you roll a lot of doubles and such things, Ogres are hard to coach (well, may be that changes at some point like TR 200+)
Tackle for one of my Ogres was +12k
PhrollikK's post points to somethign more interesting than flaws in TS for Big Guys imho... there are really a lot of Orcs, and it's not a bad roster. |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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Nov 26, 2008 - 15:49 |
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| nin wrote: | | Ogres are hard to coach (well, may be that changes at some point like TR 200+) |
Oh my no... it gets much worse. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Nov 26, 2008 - 16:13 |
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One problem with the TS formula seems to be the cumulative modifier. While some teams (like vampires) do benefit massively from having alot of skills in one player (maybe four) other teams (like goblins) really dont benefit from having a sidestep/divingtackle/surefeet/catch goblin compared to just having four sidestepping goblins. To be honest I'd be inclined to get rid of the cumulative alltogether and replace it with extra costings for certain skill combinations.
| Quote: | Block is just as useful on ogres than on anyone else. So if you want to raise it, raise it on all players.
No reason to raise the cost for ogres if you don't do it for everyone. Yes block is a the best skill, no this isn't different for big guys. |
Given the choice between having block on a lineman and block on an ogre I'll take it on the ogre thanks  There is a difference  |
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Ilovpompom
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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Nov 26, 2008 - 16:36 |
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If the lino isn't the dp of the team or some other utility skill like kick, you'll take block on the lino first skill... so I don't see the difference.
Yes rolling doubles has a strong impact on a ogre team, but that's the same for every team. You should remember that ogres have a really crappy skill choice, and that doesn't only mean that they get better with doubles but also that you will often see really crappy ogres. For example a really expensive 51+spp ogres with guard/piling on/multiblock/break tackle which will be as usefull as a 6spp guard ogre or close to it.
And I agree with pizzamogul, the higher TR/TS the harder, best ogres with no doubles are the ones with 6spp and guard. The rest will only get you tougher opponents and less cash income.
If block is underrated, which with only +10 might be quite true, it's not only a big guy problem. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 26, 2008 - 16:59 |
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It is a big guy problem because big guys are balanced by being highly unreliable. A blockless lino can reroll a failed block - an ogre can`t (or on ogre teams wastes one of the extremely precious rerolls). There is a reason, why big guys don`t have access to G skills any more. |
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Ilovpompom
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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Nov 26, 2008 - 17:20 |
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Weird speech for someone who told me that ogre team is just an extremely bad roster every time I played him.
Getting 1 double doesn't mean having G access and getting block doesn't mean they don't have to roll for bonehead.
Is a bloc/claw/rsc goat more balanced than a block/tackle/guard ogre? I don't think so...
I feel more like you were not used to get beaten by ogres and now that you can't dodge them before getting 8mb/3dp, rsc/claw or a full blodge elf team that's getting you a little bit upset...
Ogres do now get a wide range of opponent and not only overly strong bashers to play with, and therefore are better in the box than in ranked, but that's quite normal as they were winning really few in ranked.
It's even better with the BBR cause that allow ogres to avoid full blodge teams... |
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