FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Plorg

Joined: May 08, 2005

Posted: Nov 27, 2008 - 23:07

Plorg runs off to make 40 Orc teams to soak up the total % so that the rest of you can't make Orc teams! Yay!

kn00b

Joined: Jan 23, 2008

Posted: Nov 27, 2008 - 23:31

CircularLogic wrote:

You are twisting words here.

Hi Pot, meet Kettle.

CircularLogic wrote:

Kn00b was complaining, that elves would rule the world, because there are 4 elven teams per orc team... implying that scoring teams outnumber the bashy ones 4 to 1.

kn00b was pointing out that elves would dominate the league, because there are four elven teams plus one skaven team for every orc team, inferring that a large number of bashers is needed to keep scoring teams in check.

I fixed it for you.

CircularLogic wrote:

You are twisting words here.

CircularLogic wrote:

And - even more of an mystery to me - what points does kn00b actually make? That zons are evil?

That the racial balance of [B] and indeed any league will never be to your exact liking. You speak of a better and more competitive racial balance when ultimately you are trying to achieve YOUR PREFERENCE by denying people the choice of what race to play.
I would like to never play zons again, however some people do. My solution is to try and convince them that other teams are more fun, not to deny them the choice to play whatever team they'd like.

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Nov 27, 2008 - 23:39

CircularLogic wrote:

I have no prejudgement. The data mounts up. How that data looks like.. I have no clue and I have never claimed it would support only my view. You are twisting words here.

Also I have never talked about 'acceptable' race mix - which implies that others are inacceptable. I have said what more ideal mixes look like. You disagree - which I respect, even though you haven`t stated, what you consider an ideal spread.

Watch and marvel as hair after hair is split!

I don't have any 'ideal' set-up. I'm entirely confident that we don't need to worry about the matter. Leaving it up to coaches' free choice to determine for themselves will lead to an entirely reasonable balance. It's trying to weight that balance that would cause problems.

kn00b and nin can explain their own posts to you. I myself found them to be pretty clear.

Quote:

But if it means so much for you and soothes your mind, I`ll stop posting and caring about [B]. Since apparently talking about it weakens my position, makes people twist my words and does nothing. Because we should all wait, until the system is settled in and set in stone, before futile attempts for change are made.

Ah, yes, 'set in stone'.

Because, as we all remember, three months after Faction - for example - was founded, there were never any changes to Faction ever again. It was 'set in stone'.

Except for all the dozens of changes that were made.

And the next lot of of changes, a few months after that.

And so on.

All the divisions have seen plenty of changes over the years: and they did not all have to happen in some narrow window before things became 'set in stone'. So, your fears on that front - as on others - look baseless.

HolyG

Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 00:12

No one is being denied of any preference, what I was actually getting at is that maybe there is space for a racially balanced Black Box division, If you don't want it, then don't join it simple.

But why make such an effort to stop others from supporting the concept.

Circ, you talk a whole lotta sense, but hey dya ever get the feeling it's wasted on a few ?

Snorri

Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 00:38

nin wrote:

Snorri, you are playing Dwarves in the BBox.

Exactly.

I didn't think the prospect of playing my usually favoured teams (necro, dark elves, humans...) was going to be particualarly enjoyable going up against dwarves/orcs/khemri more than 50% of the time. Now I'm not a ranked elfballer who avoids these teams - if you have a look at my teams, they take on one and all in the swl and swl's fringe. But they enjoy variety and the challenges that come with it.

So, because I was disappointed with the situation I posted in another forum thread CL had going about this.

Finally, I made a dwarf team for blackbox. I despise dwarves. This is the first team of dwarves I've made after 3+ years on fumbbl. I did it partly because for a long time I've been poking fun at how easy dwarves have it, but I haven't backed it up with experience. But I must admit, the desire to do so only arouse because of my frustrations above - and the perverse need to beat the system senseless with them. I realise its not a solution, but I also realise there's no chance of affecting things the way they are on fumbbl (outside of U anyway).

Why is it the popularity yardstick is always the only measure of anything? We have sufficient numbers to allow people with slightly more interest in bbowl than 'bash and crash' or 'elfball' to diversify the system a bit. But with the current thinking in the huddle, it's impossible to do anything but.

Also, I wonder how many people fumbbl has lost that are like Circular Logic. Without anything of substance, ranked loses its lustre for many, blackbox too. Of those of us in the swl, at least 50% do not play ranked, or blackbox and haven't for some time (I myself have played maybe 10 games in 2 years). If it wasn't for the swl we would have dropped fumbbl a long, long time ago.

Optihut

Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 00:58

Snorri wrote:

nin wrote:

Snorri, you are playing Dwarves in the BBox.

Exactly.

I didn't think the prospect of playing my usually favoured teams (necro, dark elves, humans...) was going to be particualarly enjoyable

Don't knock it till you've tried it, I find my blackbox darkies very enjoyable and would think that necros are fun as well.

Optihut

Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 01:05

HolyG wrote:

But why make such an effort to stop others from supporting the concept.

Simple: If you get the HolyG blackbox, then I want an Optihut blackbox and next thing we know is that we have 20 different blackboxes with 1/20 of the player base each, which makes the whole concept unviable.

Snorri

Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 01:17

Optihut wrote:

HolyG wrote:

But why make such an effort to stop others from supporting the concept.

Simple: If you get the HolyG blackbox, then I want an Optihut blackbox and next thing we know is that we have 20 different blackboxes with 1/20 of the player base each, which makes the whole concept unviable.

That refutes rather undeniably the proposition of 20 blackboxes. It does nothing to refute the proposition of two or three blackboxes and certainly does nothing to support the proposition of 1 blackbox.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 09:29

Snorri wrote:

nin wrote:

Snorri, you are playing Dwarves in the BBox.

Exactly.

I didn't think the prospect of playing my usually favoured teams (necro, dark elves, humans...) was going to be particualarly enjoyable going up against dwarves/orcs/khemri more than 50% of the time. Now I'm not a ranked elfballer who avoids these teams - if you have a look at my teams, they take on one and all in the swl and swl's fringe. But they enjoy variety and the challenges that come with it.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
I know this sounds blunt, but it's exactly what I think.
If you don't find enjoyable to go against dwarves khemri orcs more than 50% of the time, what do you do? Join them because you can't beat them, then come on the forums stating that there's less variety and asking for a solution?

Meh... Sorry but such a claim is frankly very poo(r).

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Optihut

Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 12:07

One observation: Despite the khemri wording in the poll, which makes "NO" a less attractive option to pick, the poll still shows that it's again the loud minority that demands changes.

Snorri

Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 12:30

JanMattys wrote:

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
I know this sounds blunt, but it's exactly what I think.
If you don't find enjoyable to go against dwarves khemri orcs more than 50% of the time, what do you do? Join them because you can't beat them, then come on the forums stating that there's less variety and asking for a solution?

Meh... Sorry but such a claim is frankly very poo(r).

Why are we supposed to fix a situation we saw coming before joining blackbox? Why should we sacrifice our enjoyment of the game to be lovely fodder for the rest? Why should we try when we saw it inevitably coming anyway? Especially why should we bear the burden of resolving it when no-one else is doing anything except pressuring the minority in this way?

Snorri

Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 12:33

Optihut wrote:

One observation: Despite the khemri wording in the poll, which makes "NO" a less attractive option to pick, the poll still shows that it's again the loud minority that demands changes.

Maybe the loud minority drifts away from fumbbl when they give up on it.

Maybe the loud minority would be happy to just have an option instead of what there is now - why do they have to settle for the lowest common denominator?

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 12:38

Snorri wrote:

JanMattys wrote:

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
I know this sounds blunt, but it's exactly what I think.
If you don't find enjoyable to go against dwarves khemri orcs more than 50% of the time, what do you do? Join them because you can't beat them, then come on the forums stating that there's less variety and asking for a solution?

Meh... Sorry but such a claim is frankly very poo(r).

Why are we supposed to fix a situation we saw coming before joining blackbox? Why should we sacrifice our enjoyment of the game to be lovely fodder for the rest? Why should we try when we saw it inevitably coming anyway? Especially why should we bear the burden of resolving it when no-one else is doing anything except pressuring the minority in this way?

1- My experience with humans and high elves in the blackbox has taught me that this all-dwarf-orc-khemri crap is hugely overestimated. It's not non-existant, but HUGELY overestimated.

2- You are exaggerating when assuming that your teams will get pounded into a pulp every time you meet a basher in divb. This is out of fear, or out of cowardice, or just for selective perception. I don't know. Still, you're basing all your assumptions and requests on a VERY debatable basis. Teams of all races (ok, maybe not norse) can win and develop in DivB. Unless you mean "I want to create a flawless TR 250 team"... if that's your goal, stick to [R]...

3- You are not playing fodder for the rest. You're just a team like all others, with strenghts and weaknesses you need to use to your advantage. Feeling like a prey even before the hunt has begone is totally unmotivated. On a side note, this is exactly what point 2 is about.

4- By playing (and to an extent, by being successfull) with a team other than orcs, khemri and dorfs you are much more likely to move the hearts of fellow fumbblers into making a team like that on Blackbox (adding variety to the team pool) than you are by coaching dorfs and asking for an ultimate blackbox "because there's too many bashers". I hope you realise this... Rolling Eyes

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Last edited by JanMattys on %b %28, %2008 - %12:%Nov; edited 1 time in total

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 12:40

Snorri wrote:

Maybe the loud minority would be happy to just have an option instead of what there is now - why do they have to settle for the lowest common denominator?

They don't. Communities who want something different and/or better set that up themselves as groups in [L] (as we both know).

Mass participation divisions like [R] and [B] are all about the lowest common denominator though.

Mezir

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Nov 28, 2008 - 12:47

There are two reasons for the amount of high AV/bash teams in DivB.

1) People can finally get easy games for the bash teams they like to play. They relish this opportunity and play these teams.

2) People who prefer softer teams are afraid that they will be fodder for the basher teams (because obviously everybody will be playing bashers, right?), or that their teams will die, and they think the only solution to this is to make bashers themselves.

As should be obvious, reason 2 is a self-fulfilling prophecy that feeds on itself. If the division dies due to it being a bashfest, reason 2 will be to blame.

To all people citing this reason to make Dwarfs and Orcs: Grow a pair and become part of the solution.

Oh, and I really admire your biased polling options.

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