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Poll
Do you want major/ minor tourneys in [B]lack Box?
Yes
68%
 68%  [ 134 ]
No
31%
 31%  [ 61 ]
Total Votes : 195


koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 09:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
frankly, if you can't make it in to the top 100 coaches (or 96, or whatever), you don't really have any business being in a "major".

That's one of the flaws of the "give everyone a chance with the ball" mentality. You see it in Ranked all the time. At least a fifth of the teams in a given major have no business being in a major.


Ah right. So we need to grind out 2000 games with the optimum team just to be in the draw?
Should I pick orcs or dwarves?

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 10:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Snappy_Dresser wrote:
frankly, if you can't make it in to the top 100 coaches (or 96, or whatever), you don't really have any business being in a "major".


That's one of the flaws of the "give everyone a chance with the ball" mentality. You see it in Ranked all the time. At least a fifth of the teams in a given major have no business being in a major.


Excuse me, but this is the stupidest thing EVER.
I know I am not a top coach, but I can manage (and keep) a winning percentage of about 70% with elves and Orcs, while I am down to barely more than 50% with humans. Still, I want to coach humans.

If you want tourneys participation to be decided by the actual w/t/l of a coach, then as long as I coach humans I pretty much stand no chance of competing... while I am pretty sure that I can be able to enter almost any tournament I want if i just stick to Orcs...now to the point: why in hell should I be forced to coach the more competitive races (which i hate with the intensity of a thousand suns) in order to have the access granted to a tournament? (a tournament, I might add, that I will be forced to play with a race I hate).

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Tinkywinky



Joined: Aug 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 16:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Inviting the coaches with highest BR and then having tourneys with a set TR could be a lot of fun, then you would really get intense competition in the tourneys. The way to organize this would be to lock your team when you feel it's ready for the tourney and then it wouldnt get matched in the box until the tourney is over.

Day 1: Invites go out to X number of coaches based on BR. The desired number of entires + 5 sub teams get picked.
Day 5: By this date the teams that are to be entered into the tourney are locked from further play. (this includes substitutes that want to have a shot)
Day 8: Tourney starts.

The three days between lock and start is to allow for subs to get switched in if someone failed to meet the TR-cap or drops out of the tourney by some other reason.

There is nothing that stops events like the XFL in [B ] either.

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Snappy_Dresser



Joined: Feb 11, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2009 - 18:50 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Snappy_Dresser wrote:
frankly, if you can't make it in to the top 100 coaches (or 96, or whatever), you don't really have any business being in a "major".


That's one of the flaws of the "give everyone a chance with the ball" mentality. You see it in Ranked all the time. At least a fifth of the teams in a given major have no business being in a major.


Excuse me, but this is the stupidest thing EVER.
I know I am not a top coach, but I can manage (and keep) a winning percentage of about 70% with elves and Orcs, while I am down to barely more than 50% with humans. Still, I want to coach humans.

If you want tourneys participation to be decided by the actual w/t/l of a coach, then as long as I coach humans I pretty much stand no chance of competing... while I am pretty sure that I can be able to enter almost any tournament I want if i just stick to Orcs...now to the point: why in hell should I be forced to coach the more competitive races (which i hate with the intensity of a thousand suns) in order to have the access granted to a tournament? (a tournament, I might add, that I will be forced to play with a race I hate).


Excuse me, but if you can't see the advantage to not merely copying ranked, maybe you are the stupid one. Ranked has giant, everyone gets a ribbon tourneys already. There is no need to screw up [B] with them, as they just don't fit with the overall style of [B]. This also makes regular play relevant, and makes team building first strategies more risky. One of the major problems in ranked is too many games are decided by A) somebody not really in to it signing up then never playing their game, allowing the opponent to slide through and wallop the team that had to get by the Khemri. Failing that B) the same team playing some total n00b who get thumped, then crushing the opponent who had to play credible opponents.

Now if you'd read the thread before spouting off, you'd see that in this style, it would be the coach, not the team that goes through (hell, combine this with team quotas from the other thread and you've got variety nirvana).

[B] is not supposed to be a replacement for Ranked. Ranked does many things right. Box Majors should be different and complementary, not more of the same thing.

My idea is that the actual tourney is like the finals, division play IS the qualifier.

Honestly Jan, you're usually more constructive and less of a prick than this.

And Koadah: for the record, I favour no more than 64 teams in the finals, which is omething like 63 games, depending on the exact format.

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Naboimp



Joined: Dec 23, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 12, 2009 - 00:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I had some thoughts on how to run Tournaments with [B] teams, and this looked like the place to share them.

The biggest issue it seems to me is that Blackbox isn't really suited to running a tournament. Matching up opponents with similar TS might make for a compelling first round, but the final would be rather anti-climactic. Plus, the scheduling of tourney matches would surely intefere with the scheduling of regular Blackbox matches. The desire appears to be to have a framework where teams developed in the Blackbox can compete on a grander scale than just the next match.

I think the simplest answer is simply to develop a subdivision, let's say [T] for Tournament, under Blackbox. This division would not be open for new teams, but only to transfers from Blackbox. While in [T], the teams would be able to sign up for any Tournament set up for [T] teams in the same manner that [R] and [L] teams sign up for their events. The difference is that [T] teams cannot play any matches except via Tournament scheduling.

Moving the [B] teams to [T] to await a Tournament accomplishes two things. It segregates intended Tourney teams from playing additional matches while awaiting a Tourney match, and it allows other Blackbox teams to continue playing games, even other teams of the same coach. And as I envision it, the [T] could also stand for Temporary. As soon as the team is knocked out of contention in whatever Tournament it is entered in, it is automatically transferred back to the [B] division. (And this would be the only means by which to transfer back to [B] - once a transfer is made into [T], the team would have to play a tournament to get back out.)

This system would allow a great deal of flexibility on what Tournaments are run since any qualifications can be set up in the application process. (So those debates from earlier in this thread would be unaffected.) It does create a two step process for joining a Tournament, but I can't see that deterring anyone who really wanted to play. Fitting the nature of [B], my own thought would be that pairings would be re-determined after each round to prevent advance scouting to some extent. But with TS matching not necessarily desirable in a Tournament setting, my preference would be random matchups. Again, though, these are issues that can be dealt with at the Tournament level under this idea.

Since no teams outside of the [B] environment would ever get into [T], I imagine that any statistics of the two could be combined, including BR.

I'll freely admit I do not have technical knowledge regarding the difficulty of setting this up. But there are transfers of teams between [A] and [U] at least so that presumably can be worked out both directions, the only difference being that the transfer from [B] to [T] would be voluntary and optional while the transfer from [T] to [B] would follow automatically from either Tourney elimination or Tourney completion.
treborius



Joined: Apr 05, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 21, 2009 - 09:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Naboimp, just read your suggestion - i think that's an excellent vision - that'd (re)solve all problems and concerns i could think of and is still easy and transparent to everyone Smile Cool
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