52 coaches online • Server time: 23:08
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Secret League Old Wo...goto Post Creating a custom to...goto Post ramchop takes on the...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 12:21 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
koadah wrote:
spelledaren wrote:
A championsship in a division where all games strive after being 50/50 is pointless. It's just random who happens to have a good streak.


Where is the proof that it strives for 50/50?

Where are all the high CR coaches with 50% or losing records?


Ok,not 50-50.
But as long as the BR is in the forumula, the w/t/l record is not accurate.

The more the BR weights in the pairings, the less accurate the wtl record is.
The extreme of this is when the BR is calculated so that all games are 50%.... at that point, IF the math is right (we are talking in theory here) we would have all coaches, from very good to very poor, with an even record.

Anyway, as long as BR is in the formula, the wtl aspect of DivB is flawed.
This is not debatable.


Sure, but going by just w/t/l isn't great either when everyone plays a different schedule. That's why it's a weighted points system.

I'm not saying that the current Championship formula the greatest. That gives us something to argue about next Monday morning. Wink

I don't see why anyone would want someone who gets 10 easy games to be champ over someone who gets 10 hard games.

Better coaches are still going to win more games that weaker coaches.
Tougher games should still yield more points than easy games.

And just like [R] people don't have to look at the Championship table if they don't want to..

I promise not to say that Circ stinks if he finishes outside the top 100. Wink

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 12:23 Reply with quote Back to top

odi wrote:
Well, if the BR is there in the calculations couldnt you measure it still on how high you can get your BR and still manage to keep over 50% win rate? So that would mean how much up can you keep on playing and still win 50% of your games? Razz


Sure you could, but...
...doesn't this strike you as unnecessarily complicated?
Laughing

Wink

_________________
Image
odi



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 12:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Complicated? Nah, I'll just click the Activate and play buttons as usual and let the C man crunch the numbers Very Happy
CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 12:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Uberskiller wrote:
Did you ever think that Circ might want to make a point without having some kind of personal advantage in mind?


Nice bait. I`ll take it.

Why should I consider your personal advantage, now that you have a sufficiently (and probably artificially) low BR?

I have already posted how to win the Championship and this concept still holds true for [B]. Just trash your BR low enough while being a decent coach and don`t choke on the 10 cherries the box is handing you and there you get the title.

The current concept of championship is as if I would claim olympic gold in weight lifting, because I lifted 60kg, which for me is way more than those 300+kg are for trained body builder.

Championship as a ranking with a monthly reset would have a meaning, if you keep the difficulty for TS and ditch the BR-difficulty.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 12:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Circ wrote:
Championship as a ranking with a monthly reset would have a meaning, if you keep the difficulty for TS and ditch the BR-difficulty.


With a monthly reset the losses with your 'all zombie long bomb team' will not help you win the Championship so you don't need to drop BR.

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Of course it will help. Take the current formula. Imagine 2 coaches winning 10 matches against a CR 170 coach both times with exactly the same teams (always equal TS). The first coach has CR 170, the second has CR135. The score of the first coach will be 100, the score of the second coach will be 121.82 even though both have played the exact same matches.

Now why would you say, that it won`t help me if I bring myself to an incredibly low BR?
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 14:01
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
......Where are all the high CR coaches................?



Back in R.
Most seem to be anyways.

[B] seems to be settling into a sort of R-light. Where you get a little help if you arnt a decent coach, and get penalised if you are. Also the home for the socially dissadvantaged that struggle to find [R] matches due to not being very nice in their online persona. Once people tire of this patronising help they may be ready to move back up to the truely competitive [R] division.

From [A] to [B] to [R].
Wink

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 14:24 Reply with quote Back to top

So rename [R]anked into [C]ompetitive? So you can move from [A] to [B] to [C]?

PC raised an interesting point... I just went through the matches of the top 15 coaches. Only 5 of those 15 had more than 5 games in [B] out of their last 15. Of the 5 playing, 1 had just started and was still playing even matches, 1 had just a much lower win% than in ranked and was thus still getting even games TS wise and 1 has found a minor exploit I guess by only having one orc team with very high TS (220+) and playing mainly in times with low [B] traffic (around 9am bbtime).

Only 2 coaches were playing [B] in regular basis but at a glance I saw multiple concessions in [B].
rumpage



Joined: Feb 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 14:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd prefer even matchups before anything else in [B].

Getting a game in 5 minutes by klicking "activate" is nice and I play more high-cr coaches than before, so I think I'm staying in [B]
Skolopender



Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 15:34 Reply with quote Back to top

rumpage wrote:
I'd prefer even matchups before anything else in [B].

Getting a game in 5 minutes by klicking "activate" is nice and I play more high-cr coaches than before, so I think I'm staying in [B]


What he said!

_________________
Lobbying for a Troll team. If Bonehead Ogres can have one, why not one for Trolls? Power to the Trolls!


Last edited by Skolopender on Dec 08, 2008 - 15:40; edited 2 times in total
Skolopender



Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

rumpage wrote:
I'd prefer even matchups before anything else in [B].

Getting a game in 5 minutes by klicking "activate" is nice and I play more high-cr coaches than before, so I think I'm staying in [B]


What he said!

Sorry double post!

_________________
Lobbying for a Troll team. If Bonehead Ogres can have one, why not one for Trolls? Power to the Trolls!


Last edited by Skolopender on Dec 08, 2008 - 15:41; edited 1 time in total
Skolopender



Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

rumpage wrote:
I'd prefer even matchups before anything else in [B].

Getting a game in 5 minutes by klicking "activate" is nice and I play more high-cr coaches than before, so I think I'm staying in [B]


What he said!

Sorry triple post! (But it is a good ponit)

_________________
Lobbying for a Troll team. If Bonehead Ogres can have one, why not one for Trolls? Power to the Trolls!
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 15:48 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
odi wrote:
Well, if the BR is there in the calculations couldnt you measure it still on how high you can get your BR and still manage to keep over 50% win rate? So that would mean how much up can you keep on playing and still win 50% of your games? Razz


Sure you could, but...
...doesn't this strike you as unnecessarily complicated?
Laughing

Wink


actually... its a really good idea but wait.... you can'T see your br... so how would you know? and god only knows erm sry... christer only knows how much it can possibly affect your games
westerner



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 16:20 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Ok,not 50-50.
But as long as the BR is in the forumula, the w/t/l record is ... flawed.

This is not debatable.

I agree [B] W/T/L is biased, in theory. But since coach-related handicaps are 15TS max, it's not totally flawed. And in practice, you'll be playing up or down TS frequently anyway, just because that's what's available in the box.

So, I am in favor of [B] Championships. It's easily measurable and gives incentive to win games.

_________________
\x/es
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 08, 2008 - 16:33 Reply with quote Back to top

CircularLogic wrote:
Of course it will help. Take the current formula. Imagine 2 coaches winning 10 matches against a CR 170 coach both times with exactly the same teams (always equal TS). The first coach has CR 170, the second has CR135. The score of the first coach will be 100, the score of the second coach will be 121.82 even though both have played the exact same matches.

Now why would you say, that it won`t help me if I bring myself to an incredibly low BR?


I think that I see what you are saying. The line I quoted mentioned BR not CR.

I am assuming that a [B] Championship would use BR not CR as some coaches may not play [R] at all.

So, with a monthly BR reset (maybe call it BCR) your BCR 135 coach has no chance of coming back to win the Championship because they have already lost to many points.

Maybe BCR would be a little more acceptable in the scheduler as everyone starts at 150 again at the beginning of the month.

It would still be nice to see BR even if it wasn't used in any calculations.

PurpleChest wrote:
...truely competitive [R] division.


Well, as you can chose your opponents you can make it as competitive or uncompetitive as you like.

You can win minors or smacks with just one or two hard games so I assume that you are talking about Majors. Getting a team into shape seems like to much of a grind so I won't bother with that.

Of course [B] will be weakened if top coaches don't want to play but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't have it's own championship or that the [R] championship is somehow better.

Some would say that [L] is the real competitive division.
And no, that is not an invitation to join 145 Club. Wink

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic