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Poll
What should be done about kill-first [B] teams that make killing their first priority, with scoring a distant second?
1) Nothing - it's a valid strategy
44%
 44%  [ 116 ]
2) Nothing yet - i'm not convinced it's a big deal
21%
 21%  [ 56 ]
3) Contain it - Tweak the scheduling formula and/or incent coaches to win
21%
 21%  [ 55 ]
4) Ban it - it's illegal
12%
 12%  [ 33 ]
Total Votes : 260


westerner



Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2008 - 21:23 Reply with quote Back to top

There are certain teams (often heavy DP Khemri) that make CAS and fouling their first priority, with scoring a distant second or even ignoring the ball entirely. Debate has raged over whether this is a waste of the opponents time and possibly illegal, or blown out of proportion by coaches with an agenda.

EDIT:
Summarizing the results of the poll as of this writing. Overall, the majority concensus is that no action is needed, at least for now. Some coaches do think something should be done, with a smaller number very concerned. So something to keep an eye on in the future.

1) Nothing - it's a valid strategy
43% [ 96 ]
2) Nothing yet - i'm not convinced it's a big deal
22% [ 50 ]
3) Contain it - Tweak the scheduling formula and/or incent coaches to win
20% [ 44 ]
4) Ban it - it's illegal
13% [ 30 ]
Total Votes : 220

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Last edited by westerner on Dec 15, 2008 - 15:37; edited 2 times in total
SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 11:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd like to see the offenders pushed out of the Blackbox... however I dont think I've seen an appropriate rule for that. Its just such a hard thing to rule for.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:20 Reply with quote Back to top

The poll is biased.

"Nothing, it's a valid strategy" should read "Nothing, killing is a valid goal in itself"

A strategy is a way to achieve a goal.
Those who forget the ball from turn 1 to 16 are not using a different strategy. They are trying to achieve a different goal than everybody else.

ps: I voted ban, even if I am the first to understand that a rule about it is very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce.

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RC



Joined: Sep 22, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Implement cr.. or atleast some sort of credit system for winning matches. Blackbox rating or whatever

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DukeTyrion



Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:35 Reply with quote Back to top

RC wrote:
Implement cr.. or atleast some sort of credit system for winning matches. Blackbox rating or whatever


There is a Blackbox rating ... we are just not allowed to see it yet Crying or Very sad
Rijssiej



Joined: Jan 04, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:36 Reply with quote Back to top

What Jan said, it is about the goal not about the strategy.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:39 Reply with quote Back to top

This is something that has been written in every rulebook since at least ... Death Zone?

Chaos Teams:

"They rarely, if ever, worry about such minor considerations like picking up the ball and scoring touchdowns - not while there are any players left alive in the opposing team, anyway."

So what is the BIG DEAL?

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Bytez0r



Joined: May 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:44 Reply with quote Back to top

very good point grod
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod,

LRB also says:

"HALFLING TEAMS
The technical deficiency of Halfling teams is legendary. They’re too short to throw or catch, they run at half pace, and the whole team can spend all afternoon trying to block an Ogre without any chance of success. Most Halfling Coaches try to make up for quality with quantity. After all, if you can get half a dozen players in the opposing team’s End Zone and, by some miracle, manage to end up with the ball, then there is a small chance that one or two of them won’t be jelly by the time you throw the thing…"

This isn't exactly the description of a mass-dp team, like any sensible halfling team better be. Background description is one thing, practical play is another thing.

So no, yours is NOT a valid point.

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 12:56 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Grod,
Background description is one thing, practical play is another thing.


I beg to differ. Background description can shed some light on the spirit with which the game may be played. It is after all, not a game of chess, but a fantasy game of football.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 13:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
JanMattys wrote:
Grod,
Background description is one thing, practical play is another thing.


I beg to differ. Background description can shed some light on the spirit with which the game may be played. It is after all, not a game of chess, but a fantasy game of football.


So let's say we are in a tournament.
I coach flings, and keep throwing players past my chaos opponent "in the hope that at least a couple of them will end up with the ball and won't be jelly before I attempt a long pass or a long bomb past your lines and score".

I lose 8-0, never foul, never injure my opponent, and play in a way that could be well defined "playing to lose" if you take into account the fact that everybody knows that I know better than this when it comes down to bloodbowl.

Now assume you are my Chaos oppoent's next opponent.
Would you be so easy in accepting my behaviour as "justified by fluff" or won't you be quite pissed at my playing style in a tournament instead, a style that made you face a perectly healthy chaos team who beefed up itself in our game, instead of having maybe one or two players missing due to fouls?

...

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Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 13:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Sounds like lots of halfling teams! What is wrong with coming up with fun ways of scoring? Not every one likes to foul, so now you want to ban any halfling coach who doesn't foul?

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Vol



Joined: Sep 19, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 13:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Bashy teams can play bashy without being very heavy DP and without completely forgetting about the ball, so I'm with Jan about your point Grod, but for different reasons.

In the box now, I've gone against two DP heavy Khemri teams. One had more DPs than necessary and completely ignored the ball. The other had enough DPs to get the job done (after all, only one player can foul per turn, so there is a point at which you can have too many DPs), and stopped fouling when it was no longer necessary.

I beat the former and hated the match, even though I suffered no permanent injuries. I lost to the latter and didn't hate the match, even though I had three players killed and a fourth pushed into retirement.

I don't mind when it is used as a strategy. I would like to avoid the kids that use it as a goal.
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 13:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I find this discussion very funny indeed.

The main argument for the [B] division was always that all the picking and elfballing going on in [R] was so lame that we needed a way to automatically schedule matches within reason based (at least primarily) on TS.

It was always implied that this would mean that people who play to (mostly) kill instead of win can no longer be avoided.

I really do not like the strategy applied by these well, let's call them coaches, if just for argument's sake. They are also one of the reasons I still like [R] far better than [B].

But come on already. Let's stop pretending to be shocked and apalled that this stuff is going on.

It was always the logical consequence of a [B] system. C has tried to partially remedy it by introducing a bash factor into the matchmaking equation, and then there's a big petition saying it should be TS only.

So many threads all demanding stuff, and when said stuff actually happens so many threads that say stuff sucks and should be banned....

Either get over it or play in [R] where you can see by the stats of the team that you will not enjoy playing them and say "no thanks" when asked.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 13:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
Sounds like lots of halfling teams! What is wrong with coming up with fun ways of scoring? Not every one likes to foul, so now you want to ban any halfling coach who doesn't foul?


You deliberately ignored my point and you deliberately dodged my question.

The thing is that playing INTENTIONALLY in a way that diverges from the basic premise of the game (i.e. to win), ('m not talking about taking a gamble in order to have future advantage in winning, like handoffing to a BoB, but blatantly choosing a sub-par way of playing because your goal is NOT the win - for example writing HELLO in halfling letters all over the pitch before turn 16) is against any competitive spirit you can think of.

And Fumbbl is by definition (i.e. it is written in the BASIC RULES of the site) a competitive league.
"FUMBBL is a competition league" (Point 2 of the Code of Conduct of this site)

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