johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 05, 2009 - 00:33 |
 
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-32 in TS, before handicaps. -80 TR.
Although I won it, so I shouldn't complain.
Strength 7 Ramtut III ftw!
Still thought it was an odd match-up. |
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To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
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—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 05, 2009 - 00:36 |
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I believe stunty TS is still way off... My Gobbos just faced a fling team with twice as much skills as me, a Block Tree, and enough chefs to steal my 3 RRs. The match-up was Goblin 125/120 vs 132/129 Halfling. I don't understand how they could be valued so low, honestly. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Jan 05, 2009 - 11:00 |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 05, 2009 - 16:50 |
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| Eddy wrote: | | I believe stunty TS is still way off... My Gobbos just faced a fling team with twice as much skills as me, a Block Tree, and enough chefs to steal my 3 RRs. The match-up was Goblin 125/120 vs 132/129 Halfling. I don't understand how they could be valued so low, honestly. |
Naama's flings arent all that strong really, I suspect that alot of what made that game hard was a) he is an evil evil bas... b) he managed to steal exactly all your RR and goblins dont cope with that well, certainly not with fungus the turnover machine. You also forgot to mention that you had more chainsaws than him 
I agree that stunty TS needs serious re-working but at the moment halflings are pretty fair except for the zero RR buisness which Naama wasnt abusing.
Edit: watching the replay to see the balance for myself...
1) You totally wasted fungus with downright stupid play, firstly you let him onto the pitch while you had no RR (where he gets in the way of the chainsaw by turning over), second you try to block a tree with him why? its a 1D block rather than the 3D block you would get vs flings.
2) Naama is somewhat generous and wastes his foul on a troll... on that note I also noticed that one of your trolls has wasted a skill on multiblock. Useless skills like that will stack up the TS.
3) You try and stand your troll up with no assist for his Really Stupid, if nothing else it shows you setup the trolls carelessly
4) Both sides are making a fair number of mistakes but they are forgivable mistakes, I can see the rationality behind most of them even if its wrong 
5) You dodged with your troll? I can see the rationality of trying to get it into the fray away from the tree but the tree hasnt rooted yet so will be straight after you (the tree might be slower but it has a much straighter path to the action).
6) Two goblins dying outright was unlucky, it isnt any worse than badly hurt in terms of winning the game but I'm sure it made it feel worse than 2 badly hurts.
7) Naama has definately got the best part of the luck when it comes to splatting things with blocks. However, you've not managed to maximise your troll/chainsaw hurt machines either (through a mix of luck and poor positioning).
I stopped watching at the end of turn 4 of the second half because it was basicly over. My conclusion is that actually the TS was relatively accurate but you suffered from fungus being rubbish against halflings (hes pretty rubbish without alot of RR anyway). Both sides made mistakes but he had a stronger team and some brutal cas dice so won... however you could have definately won despite the dice had you played better, this is particularly evident because in the second part of the first half you did start to play alot better and were rewarded by preventing a TD. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
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Ansbach
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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Jan 05, 2009 - 20:43 |
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Here's one playing right now: Jacken (229/217) Chaos vs Necromantic (171/190) Screech
+58 TR, +27 TS for the Chaos team... that's a bit rediculous. I'd be pretty upset if I was Screech - especially if I suffered heavy casualties. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Jan 05, 2009 - 20:50 |
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Eh? That's just racial factor. Chaos teams suck. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Jan 05, 2009 - 21:32 |
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Haxtor
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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Jan 05, 2009 - 23:15 |
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I have seen this several times now and I don't understand the logic..
The easiest example is my 129/110 CDs vs 107/107 Dorf, when I had 110/117 Undead (which was my preferred team as well). Yes, the TS is closer, but the handicap that is given away if its moreleys or I am the greatest reduces TS by at least 10. Equally if its palmed coin it still not as good a match up as the undead.
129/110 vs 107/107 after handicaps is a 2 ts difference in the favor of Karix
129/110 vs 110/117 after handicaps is a 12 ts difference in the favor of Karix- How can you say, preferred team or not that this would have been a better match up? |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jan 06, 2009 - 01:36 |
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| pac wrote: | | Eh? That's just racial factor. Chaos teams suck. |
Not at TS 210+
In fact the racial matchup at the 210-230 TS bracket is 57.82 and at the 190-210 TS bracket 52.53 both in favor of Chaos. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 06, 2009 - 03:51 |
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SillySod, i won't waste forum space by answering every point you make. You might want to refrain from harsh comments on a game you didn't witness in real time and on which you only have your interpretation of things, without any idea of any plan that might have been going on at the time. Just sayin'. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 06, 2009 - 05:23 |
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| Eddy wrote: |
SillySod, i won't waste forum space by answering every point you make. You might want to refrain from harsh comments on a game you didn't witness in real time and on which you only have your interpretation of things, without any idea of any plan that might have been going on at the time. Just sayin'. |
Watching a replay does give you a decent sense of whats going on. If you use JBBR2 instead of the default replayer then you can play it through at a reasonable speed... not too slow but at a pace where you can see moves, plan what you'd do with the turn etc and think "arggh no no dont do it" as you see a doomed action plan unfolding.
I wasnt intending to criticise you but I was trying to work out why you might have thought it was so uneven when (to me) it didnt look too bad on paper. As I watched it I wrote down stuff that I noticed to explain why I dont think the matchup was as bad as all that, a significant part of that was poor luck. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Jan 06, 2009 - 09:48 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Eddy wrote: |
SillySod, i won't waste forum space by answering every point you make. You might want to refrain from harsh comments on a game you didn't witness in real time and on which you only have your interpretation of things, without any idea of any plan that might have been going on at the time. Just sayin'. |
Watching a replay does give you a decent sense of whats going on. If you use JBBR2 instead of the default replayer then you can play it through at a reasonable speed... not too slow but at a pace where you can see moves, plan what you'd do with the turn etc and think "arggh no no dont do it" as you see a doomed action plan unfolding.
I wasnt intending to criticise you but I was trying to work out why you might have thought it was so uneven when (to me) it didnt look too bad on paper. As I watched it I wrote down stuff that I noticed to explain why I dont think the matchup was as bad as all that, a significant part of that was poor luck. |
I must agree to Eddy. Yousound pedentic when critiscizing. Like you were Mr Bloodbowl masterchief caring to explain how to play.
Anyway, the more matchups I see, the more I favour Christer's original plan of removing handicaps. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 06, 2009 - 13:34 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Watching a replay does give you a decent sense of whats going on. If you use JBBR2 instead of the default replayer then you can play it through at a reasonable speed... not too slow but at a pace where you can see moves, plan what you'd do with the turn etc and think "arggh no no dont do it" as you see a doomed action plan unfolding. |
Yeah, but i'd argue PLAYING a game gives you an even better sense =) And that just because you wouldn't have played one way doesn't mean the play was "wrong". Now don't misunderstand me, i didn't say i played perfectly. But some of your criticism is unfounded.
| Quote: | | I wasnt intending to criticise you but I was trying to work out why you might have thought it was so uneven when (to me) it didnt look too bad on paper. As I watched it I wrote down stuff that I noticed to explain why I dont think the matchup was as bad as all that, a significant part of that was poor luck. |
Yeah, but poor luck is something that is magnified when games are not balanced. And from a basic point of view, without going into details, how can you say that the match-up was balanced, even on paper, when the flings had many more skills than me, including Block on one of the Trees, and Diving Tackle on almost every single Fling (bar the one with DP, another asset that was unavailable to me...). But yeah, i know, i should have rolled doubles instead of noobishly roll normal skills =P |
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'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Jan 06, 2009 - 14:12 |
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| Eddy wrote: |
SillySod, i won't waste forum space by answering every point you make. You might want to refrain from harsh comments on a game you didn't witness in real time and on which you only have your interpretation of things, without any idea of any plan that might have been going on at the time. Just sayin'. |
um...
eddy....
watching the replay of a match, is identical to watching it in real time...
the only difference is you don't get the chat between the two coaches...
| Eddy wrote: | | Yeah, but poor luck is something that is magnified when games are not balanced. And from a basic point of view, without going into details, how can you say that the match-up was balanced, even on paper, when the flings had many more skills than me, including Block on one of the Trees, and Diving Tackle on almost every single Fling (bar the one with DP, another asset that was unavailable to me...). But yeah, i know, i should have rolled doubles instead of noobishly roll normal skills =P |
btw, i find it humorous that cite the lack of balance...when you had 4 unskilled gobbos, and naama had 3 unskilled flings...not to mention that he had 14 players compared to your 16.....not to mention that you came into the match with a ball and chain(admittedly a bad call vs flings, but that's not your fault, that's just luck of the draw from the scheduler), and a chainsaw...and i guess it slipped your mind to mention that both of your trolls had skills also huh?...
then again, if you had mentioned any of that, you wouldn't have a platform to stand on, now would you?
also, on the flipside....had you won....would you be complaining?...probably not..
--j |
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Last edited by shadow46x2 on %b %06, %2009 - %14:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 06, 2009 - 14:19 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | um...
eddy....
watching the replay of a match, is identical to watching it in real time...
the only difference is you don't get the chat between the two coaches... |
Yeah, whatever YOU say =)
| shadow46x2 wrote: | | btw, i find it humorous that cite the lack of balance...when you had 4 unskilled gobbos, and naama had 3 unskilled flings...not to mention that he had 14 players compared to your 16..... |
I've seen you argue that number of players should not be taken into account when balancing game. And he had more skills than me with less players, doesn't that tell you something about his players being more skilled than mine?
| Quote: | | not to mention that you came into the match with a ball and chain(admittedly a bad call vs flings, but that's not your fault, that's just luck of the draw from the scheduler), and a chainsaw...and i guess it slipped your mind to mention that both of your trolls had skills also huh?... |
I didn't mention my Trolls had one skill each, neither did i mention that the Trees each had Guard. I only mentioned that one of them had Block. So even his Big Guys were more skilled than mine, and with a doubles skills to boot.
| Quote: | | then again, if you had mentioned any of that, you wouldn't have a platform to stand on, now would you? |
Of course i would still have one. In fact, it changes nothing. Because my B&C and my Saw are valued pretty high in TS, everyone knows that, it's readily available information. On the other hand, a fling team with lots of skills, including doubles, and 3 Chefs, is apparently not valued very high. That was my initial point, which you most likely skipped, since you were so eager to start a fight.
| Quote: | | also, on the flipside....had you won....would you be complaining?...probably not.. |
Probabilities are tricky shadow. In that case, you're wrong (again, dare i say): i've already complained about stupid match-ups that i won. I'm pretty sure you answered to those (if not by me, by others in the same situation) by "well, you won, so obviously it's not unbalanced".
But, don't worry, i'm aware that you can say everything and its opposite, if you think it can win you an e-argument =) |
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Robert R. Coveyou |
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